Projecting and Pre-Hung gear

SAL wrote: Jumbo love is bogus!!! I knew it!

I don't get it?

Brad Brandewie wrote: I don't get it?

The new 5.15b sharma did had about 80 meters of fixed draws and most everything at Clark. I am just confused as to why not one article,. report or athelete calls this a pink point but yes the rest of us mortals have such high standards on 5.12 that we actually veto a valid "redpoint" becuase there are fixed draws.
I don't get it as well :)

SAL wrote: I dont see any chest beating or criticizm going on thus far. Seems like a normal climbing thread and style and tactics.

SAL, I totally agree. This is a great, level-headed discussion. My comment was not intended to apply only to this thread, or even to this web site.

SAL wrote: IMHO i think sport climbers have more core style codes and conduct then a trad...How many threads do we see weekely on did i screw up by clipping the fixed nut?

Hehe Spend much time over on Super Taco? True, not on this website. But I think if you were to hang around the fire at Camp Four you would hear plenty of debates on trad ethics.

Am I happy with my send? Do I want to challenge myself further by placing draws myself? Who cares what you call your send. If you accomplished what you set out to do, that's all that matters. Very few of us are making money for sending things cleanly, ground up, onsight, etc.
Why judge someone on how they completed the route? If they are pleased with their send, be happy for them. Don't tell them, "Oh, but you stick clipped and used hanging draws. I've done it skipping every other draw, so I'm a hardman."

Monomaniac wrote: SAL, I totally agree. This is a great, level-headed discussion. My comment was not intended to apply only to this thread, or even to this web site. Hehe Spend much time over on Super Taco? True, not on this website. But I think if you were to hang around the fire at Camp Four you would hear plenty of debates on trad ethics.

yeah this debate can be had for ever and ever. :)

Nope. Dont do the taco. Dont really do sites but this at all.

Adam Catalano wrote:Am I happy with my send? Do I want to challenge myself further by placing draws myself? Who cares what you call your send. If you accomplished what you set out to do, that's all that matters. Very few of us are making money for sending things cleanly, ground up, onsight, etc. Why judge someone on how they completed the route? If they are pleased with their send, be happy for them. Don't tell them, "Oh, but you stick clipped and used hanging draws. I've done it skipping every other draw, so I'm a hardman."

Uummm Yeah...

Maybe at some point in a lot of peoples lives they can't really climb harder so they have to climb cleaner or with better style. Or maybe some people like to do both.
I for one have struggled to push the 5.13 marker and have stepped back to try to climb a grade easier cleaner, in better style in hope of making that jump. So that is why discussions like this matter to some. You can call your climbs whatever you want. This is what we call ours.

Once you hit a certain grade boundary I find it hard to do stuff placing draws, plus sport areas that get a ton of traffic leave draws on stuff 5.12 plus.

I think the distinction was lost between pink and red when climbers started leaving the draws on most of the hard routes in a given area. Then there are the permadraws like the chain ones in the Arsenal, hard to "redpoint" these.

Pink-vs red is really a matter to be discussed in gear climbs where there is a noticeable difference in difficulty. I think many climbers leave their draws on routes so they don't have to hassle with cleaning them, which can be a workout itself on steep routes. Also athletic routes are supposed to be about the movement and not the protection. So enjoy the movement. If you want to get scared making hard clips then go climb some gear routes.

eric larson wrote:seems like worrying about all these technicalities takes the fun out of the climbing... and isn't that why we do it?

but I'm tired from climbing and reading this thread is way better than TV

No one's mentioned in this thread that you should get at least a letter grade higher w/ fixed draws. Like teeing off from the reds. So if you think you are really solid showing up at a crag and stringing up an 11c from the ground, 11d should be in your range with the draws in place. Same goes with 10b if you're solid at 9+. And so on.

Interesting how this thread got resurrected from February. Please pardon my ignorance, but I guess we are talking about the gym, right? This may not be a popular perspective, but it's the truth in the Wild. You can't claim a lead, let alone a _____point if you didn't place your own gear on lead. It seems that if you just care about _____points and the numbers, then perhaps that's where the gym is the appropriate place? How about rehearsals? Rap bolting? We can bring the rock down to our level or rise to meet its challenge. Mr. Robbins would agree. (Submitted with respect for all, and knowing that everyone climbs for a different reason.)

The beauty of ethics is that it takes place in the mind and beliefs of the individual. What I find intriguing here is how the standards seem to change with the difficulty of the climb. If the climb is hard (5.12) or very hard (5.13) fixed draws are acceptable cause that is a hard climb [to you]. But, what if 5.9 is hard and 5.10 is very hard for you? Are fixed draws ok? I love how people justify things in life based on difficulty [from their perspective]. Preplaced gear makes the climb easier no matter what the difficulty rating whether it is sport, trad, alpine, 5.9 or 5.13, period.

Again, ethics take place in the mind. If you feel good about your send, then you feel good about your send. Enjoy it! If something feels amiss, you may have not met your own standards. Go do it again in the style that feels right to you.

There are many ascents out there that people call redpoints. To me, many of these ascents are Brownpoints, soiled or stained if you will.

Anyone who thinks that you have to place draws yourself in order to claim a redpoint for hard sport climbing clearly hasn't climbed somewhere with much hard (at least hard overhung) sport climbing. Cleaning some routes at the RRG that are really overhung is almost more work than climbing them. It is stupid, dangerous, and almost impossible to clean after each burn. You'd get 1/5 the number of people or burns on the route in a day.

Will Anglin wrote:As far as I'm concerned it only counts if you climb it ground-up, onsight, barefoot, and chalkless, while hand drilling on lead from stances.

You forgot to add Naked!

And for the person who said that climbers at the RRG count a repoint if they stick clip the first bolt...you are way behind the times. We are now up to TWO bolts that can be stick clipped. ;)

Kevin Stricker wrote: Sorry Bill, but that response is well..ignorant. If I want to lead Pump-a-rama I would have to remove all 8 of the fixed chain draws and relead it with my own draws? What if I was going for an Onsight? So I guess I should bring a C-wrench with me to Rifle so I can lead routes right? Otherwise I am just top roping? I don't know of many .13's there that don't have draws on them almost all season. Do I also have to remove all fixed gear from a trad route before I consider it a lead?

Perhaps, Kevin, perhaps. Please keep in mind that the following light-hearted discourse is likely between 2 guys that climb for completely different reasons and have equally different perspectives. Neither of which is more or less right or wrong than the next . . . just different.
But as long as we're using extreme examples such as permanently altered routes like Pump-a-rama, and sarcastic perspectives, then we can discuss further the merits of fixed chains. Whoever placed the chains there has forever robbed anyone of the possibility of a clean and virtuous ascent of this route, no? An onsight is forever impossible now, since the gear is preplaced. Can anyone really look in the mirror and feel that they got an onsight redpoint on a route where they did not place a single piece of gear? If the answer is yes, then perhaps we are talking about the apples and broccoli of climbing. Maybe one cannot compare trad routes with sport routes at all.
An onsight redpoint of the Sphinx Crack is a very different thing than the onsight redpoint of Pump-a-rama.

Kevin Stricker wrote:Do I also have to remove all fixed gear from a trad route before I consider it a lead?

At least you're clipping it yourself . . . .

Bill Duncan wrote: How about rehearsals? Rap bolting? We can bring the rock down to our level or rise to meet its challenge. Mr. Robbins would agree.

Whoa! I went to bed last night in 2009 and woke up in 1988! Weird!
I guess they finally got this internet-thingy up to Jamestown. Bill- look at the thread category up top under the banner: Forum > Sport Climbing. What exactly does rise to the challenge mean? Can you lead Supercrack on hexes? Actually, even with those you are utilizing man-made technology, thereby bringing the rock down to your level to an extent. A huge distinction between sportos and tradiban is the willingness to impose artificial constructs. Do you lower to the ground and start over each time you fall/hang? You're supposed to, you know. But then, that 1st attempt becomes a rehearsal, doesn't it? If you fail on the onsight (and don't let anyone tell you the grade), do you walk away forever? So, where do all these abstract parameters end?
That whole "rise to meet the challenge" thing always sets me off. Anything less than a naked, chalkless, ropeless onsight free-solo is bringing the rock down somewhat. The era of "if you're not dyin' your'e not tryin" " is over, big guy.

Bill Duncan wrote:...a clean and virtuous ascent of this route...

You realize we're talking about climbing, right? Virtue doesn't really enter into it.

i will be the one to throw it out there that many many routes at a harder level are intentionally bolted to have the draws in place for the send, in that if they were cleaned, then hanging the draws on an onsight or redpoint would be very difficult, if not impossible on some routes.

(this could start another debate of how the routes "should" be bolted. to that, i would say, go put up a route and show us.)

I just want to say that I've enjoyed reading this thread. Thanks to all for your contributions.