Am I just old?

Sadly, climbing legend John Bachar has recently past. But, what he stood for as a climber and person will live on. What he said in this interview with regard to style and ethics resonates well with me and is pertinent to this thread:

steepmedia.wordpress.com/20…

Greg D wrote:Sadly, climbing legend John Bachar has recently past. But, what he stood for as a climber and person will live on. What he said in this interview with regard to style and ethics resonates well with me and is pertinent to this thread: steepmedia.wordpress.com/20…

Nice. Thanks for sharing that.

Great Link. Thanks for posting it.

J. Albers wrote:Sheesh. Nobody is asking you to forgo your goals, just to be a little considerate, and yes, hang dogging on one route all day when others are waiting is inconsiderate. Is it alright to take multiple burns on a route in one day....even working the same route all day, sure, but you better let others get on it as well. Let me give you an example. I go to crag X to climb a classic 5.10a, that also happens to be the "warmup" for said crag. My climbing partner barely climbs that grade, but wants to work on it. I lead the route and then set a top rope. While my partner ties in, a second party shows up and wants to warm up on it. Well, we did get there early so that we could do this route, so sure, I feel justified in letting my partner spend 30 minutes working on the route. I think this is fine, the second party got there late, and yes, they can wait or get on something else. HOWEVER, after my partner has spent a reasonable amount of time on it, its time to pull the rope and let others jump on the route. Can you get back on it after they are done and start the cycle over? Sure. But you sure is shit can't park on the route and hog it all day or you are a tool.

My earlier comments were a little under-explained. I wouldn't advocate spending all day on a route others want to do. My comments were in response to some suggesting that hanging 2 or 3 times is too much. As others have mentioned, working a route beyond your current ability is part of sport climbing. And, that may require spending a little time at a few different sections of the climb. Staying on a route all day long is a different situation.

Shumin Wu wrote:Sport climbing, as I understand it, emphasizes physical ability, strength and endurance, not experience and competency.

I imagine some here may disagree with you on this point (especially the competency part). ;-)

Shumin Wu wrote:...Not only that, most sport routes (and many newer gear routes) are graded for red-point difficulty....

I agree.

Shumin Wu wrote:...On the other hand, physical ability, strength, endurance can often overcome experience and competency, which is why occasionally, you may encounter a strong face climber busting out 5.13/5.14 lieback moves on a 5.12 crack.

Which is usually fun and comical to watch!

Shumin Wu wrote: Sport climbing, as I understand it, emphasizes physical ability, strength and endurance, not experience and competency. Not only that, most sport routes (and many newer gear routes) are graded for red-point difficulty. On the other hand, physical ability, strength, endurance can often overcome experience and competency, which is why occasionally, you may encounter a strong face climber busting out 5.13/5.14 lieback moves on a 5.12 crack.

I would disagree with the suggestion that experience isn't an important component of sport climbing ability. As you gain more experience, you learn how to complement your strength and endurance with technique. Consider a lie back...few people are ever going to be strong enough to use the series of hand holds w/o properly using their feet. Or, as another example, experience teaches that the lower your center of gravity is in relation to a sloper, the more positive the hold becomes. Granted, neither of those are examples of advanced technique but they're two examples where strength alone may not be sufficient.

shane, i'm not sure that i agree with you on this. i have climbed numerous hard routes that i absolutely got slaughtered on during my initial attempt, and then sent on my 2nd or 3rd attempt. i have also seen this quite a bit with other people. hard climbing is, well, hard. if you are really pushing yourself, you will be failing a lot of the time.

i used to really save routes until i was sure that i was ready for them. i didn't want to do it unless i knew i would onsight it. this really stagnated my growth as a climber. after i finally got rid of this way of thinking, my climbing improved tremendously (onsight, redpoint, sport, and trad). sure, i don't jump on routes that are 3 number grades harder than i have ever done, but i also don't hesitate to jump on a well protected route that i know will give me trouble. it is amazing how different the route can feel on the 2nd try, when you actually think that you can do it and your body has a better idea of how to attack it.

if i am headed up to a route that i want to do, and there are folks epic-ing on it, so be it. i usually just curse at myself for not getting up earlier. i try not to cause traffic jams on classic routes, usually i like to find less traveled routes to project, or avoid busy times.

my bottom line is, different strokes for different folks. as long as somebody isn't kicking me in the shins, then i try to let them be.

Shane Zentner wrote: however, one doesn't learn a damn thing by hang dogging their way up every bolt and yelling take and resting and lowering and yelling take and resting and on and on and on. Obviously the route is above that person's ability level and he/she would benefit much more by climbing routes that are at or slightly above his/her ability.

Although I am not particularly fond of sport climbing, don't have the patience to work routes, and find on-sighting more personally gratifying, I have to disagree with you Shane.
Not much difference bewettn lead adn TR dogging a route in terms of learning potential except on lead you do actually have to eventually do the move and can't haul up it as easy, by pulling weight up, resting, then switching positions...
Anyway, the point really is that people can learn new moves, more about hteir body and balance, etc... by working hard over their limit.
What I see in this particular thread is people validating their personal dispositions and preferences with 'data' that is more opinin than fact. But why bother? So sport climbing isn't this 'old guy's' thing. WHy not just say it pisses him off and move on. Too bad it gets his blood pressure up, and I hope it doesn't ruin his day. Far better to say it isn't your thing and move on than to let other peoples different motivations and expressions of those motivations bother you enough to get worked up about it.

Maybe a little background would explain why I felt motivated to start this thread.
Over the past couple of months I've been climbing with some people that I haven't climbed with before. A couple of them where stopping and hanging after each clip. The climbing was pretty easy. So I asked them what the problem was. They answered very matter of factly that they were just checking out the route. At every clip? yes that's what "we" always do.
So maybe they have been learning how to position their bodies or balance in ways that they haven't before (on a 5.7ish climb?), but they are also, apparently, learning that hanging on the rope for no other reason than to stop and look up is ok too.
I know it's not everybody, but it's being done so much at a lot of sport areas that some people have, apparently begun to think this is just how you climb all the time.
No it doesn't ruin my day, but I do think it sucks.

i would say... who cares. when i climb a route i don't climb it for anyone else but myself. some people climb till they fall, regardless of how far above a bolt they are. others don't. some climb 5.9, others 5.14. some project something hard until they learn it and rp it, some climb at there normal ability level and onsight all day. some are scared and thrash there way up some routes and become great climbers eventually, others give it up for top roping... or frisbee golf. maybe your climbing at too many beginner walls if this lack of style bothers you? or maybe you are just getting old as you asked.

TedV – I hear ya brotha. I must defend a minuscule portion of my generation by saying that yours is not strictly an “old guy” mentality. I’m 24 and when some one asks me to “take” I usually tell them to “grow a pair” (unless of course it’s a safety issue, or if their working a project). The tactics that you are referring to are not the “new style” of climbing, but rather the “gaper style” of climbing. I don’t think it has any relation to sport or trad, because of course anyone who has been paying attention has realized that there is almost no distinction anymore. I will admit that it gets my goat a little when I see such silliness; I feel that these people are making a mockery of the art form (not sport) that I hold so dear. But whatever, people are lame – especially climbers. Climb the way you think is cool and try to climb with people who see things the same way.

Sam Benedict wrote:TedV – I hear ya brotha. I must defend a minuscule portion of my generation by saying that yours is not strictly an “old guy” mentality. I’m 24 and when some one asks me to “take” I usually tell them to “grow a pair” (unless of course it’s a safety issue, or if their working a project). The tactics that you are referring to are not the “new style” of climbing, but rather the “gaper style” of climbing. I don’t think it has any relation to sport or trad, because of course anyone who has been paying attention has realized that there is almost no distinction anymore. I will admit that it gets my goat a little when I see such silliness; I feel that these people are making a mockery of the art form (not sport) that I hold so dear. But whatever, people are lame – especially climbers. Climb the way you think is cool and try to climb with people who see things the same way.

Awesome. Finally, someone got it right. I find "take" to be a four letter word (unless of course there is a safety concern). When my partners yell take I respond "is your gear good?" If they respond with a yes then I say "climb till you fall". A few weeks ago my partner was going for a redpoint on a route that has bomber gear. (edit: he resorts to take often) I told him "none of that take sh*t, if you want a rest you're gonna have to fall". He promptly sent the route and was rewarded with a sh*t eating grin and thanked me for the push. Amazing what the body can do if the mind doesn't quit first. Yelling take is the mind quitting before the body. Yelling take is akin to a dog rolling on its back when submitting to another dog or person. "I give, I give. Rock, you win. Please don't hurt me." Granted, I do dog routes on occasion when pushing my limits. But, to me, dogging is falling (not taking) repeatedly and still trying to do the moves again and again, never yelling take, never grabbing gear. The other tactic (which is not a style, it lacks style), clipping and hanging, clipping and taking (which is really what the op was referring to) is just advanced topropping...to me.

I'd like to see a lot of the folks here that criticize the 'take' when desired get into an on-sight comp with some of the people who like to 'take'. Would be amusing to see who is the better climber.
On a side note, I 'take' a few times a year on TR or with gear above me, particularly if I think the gear won't hold a lead fal but is good for Bodyweight from below and I know I can't afford to blow a sequence. Is that a shade of grey or what?
Anyway, whatever.

TedV wrote: . . . They answered very matter of factly that they were just checking out the route. At every clip? yes that's what "we" always do. . . . No it doesn't ruin my day, but I do think it sucks.

How about, as a warm up, when someone does a hard route ("hard" for him/her, of course), with the plan to hang at every bolt to avoid the flash pump? That's what my friend does and it seems to work pretty well for him. It's important to hang at every bolt to avoid the flash pump, even if you could keep climbing.

Also, I sometimes like to plan to take on bolts when I'm hanging the draws to I can save my strength for the redpoint with the draws hanging. Better chance of success that way. If you just climb until you fall, that's fine, but you're not making the world a better place and you're not optimizing your climbing session.

I went out to climb Dream of Wild Turkeys last year with an old buddy of mine who spent the entire car ride out there telling me about getting "one hold away from sending some 'sick' .12d" and repointing some .12bs the previous weekend. Since I only climb about 5.10, I was very impressed.

Long story short, he ended up lowering on the second pitch of Turkeys stating he couldnt figure the moves out. (?)

You cant talk about sending .12's for an hour, then lower on a 5.9 pitch.

Ha! whatever blows your dress up. It kind of seems more like a focused workout than climbing. Kind of like going for a road trip on your bike and throwing the bike in the van between hills so you'll be rested up and ready to "crank" on the hard parts. It's not for me, but I don't have any problem with them doing it as long as it doesn't affect my experience.

Climbing really hard single pitch sport is just working out, outside. If I wanted to do that, I would buy a bowflex and put it on my porch.

Jon Ruland wrote: why not hang a bit and figure out the move so you can learn some technique?

You meant, why not learn some technique so you don't have hang right?

JF

Jesse Patchett wrote: Since I only climb about 5.10, I was very impressed. Long story short, he ended up lowering on the second pitch of Turkeys stating he couldnt figure the moves out. (?) You cant talk about sending .12's for an hour, then lower on a 5.9 pitch.

Sure you can- happens all the time to people who are arrogant.

Sometimes my girlfriend hang-dogs her way up sport routes. I still celebrate her send with her. What should I do, tell her that she's not a l33t climber because she didn't do it in good style? Keep in mind that many people are just out enjoying themselves and the beauty of the surrounding environment and couldn't give a sh1t about ethics or style or most of the stuff that people talk about on these forums. That said, I personally enjoy the discussion and follow the ethics more precisely myself when I can. I enjoy leading both trad and sport and although I do not always lower off after a fall, I keep myself to a three falls and you're done rule, and I never claim a redpoint unless it's so.

Colin