the leader must not fall. are you seriously?

i've found that most trad climbers don't like to fall on their gear, even if the gear is "so bomber it may as well be a bolt". example: basalt splitters. so i was hoping to hear from some folks who really push the limits on gear; what is your take on the subject? do you fall often? if not, why not? do you subscribe to the "leader must not fall" belief? if you do fall often on your gear, do you feel safe? i'm assuming you do, otherwise you wouldn't be taking frequent whippers. while we're on the subject, why do you feel safe?

pushing limits? I push my limits, but they certainly aren't "THE" limits. But i've started whipping on my gear this season. I think it's made me safer cause I think of every piece as having to be truck. Before on some moderates id place a so so cam or stopper and then cruise on. Now as I've said everything' bomber And as a whole i've always felt pretty bomber.

If you're not falling on occasion then you aren't climbing hard enough.

I took your question to be asking whether I felt trad gear was as reliable as bolts.

The security in sport, for me, is the fact that the protection is layed out for quick use and reasonably spaced(I know there are R/X bolted routes, but that's not the norm), not that I feel a bolt is inherently more able to hold my fall.

My fear is not that a placed piece won't hold(at least not the major fear). The major fear is being put in a situation where I cannot get a reliable piece in when I need one.

If the piece "may as well be a bolt" and I can see another reliable placement within safe distance, then I feel good about my protection and trudging on. Its when I don't know when the next piece is going to come and my last piece is getting farther and farther away that I get apprehensive.

edit: and, no, I don't fall often on sport or trad, butt its not because I'm that good. I due put faith in my gear in terms or aiding and such, though.

You have to evaluate safety on a route by route and sometimes even move by move basis, but for the most part, falling on trad routes is not only safe, but a very important part of becoming a better climber.

For me, getting on a difficult but safe trad route, and getting to a point where I think I'm going to fall, but I go for it anyway, is the single most important exercise in improving my trad climbing skills. Regardless of the outcome, you will almost certainly improve. When I'm focusing on improving my trad skills, I set a goal of purposefully putting myself into this type of a situation at least once a week.

If you are able to pull off the move, you will likely learn (and re-learn) that we often have more ability to keep hanging on then we realize. We far too often fall or yell "take" because we consciously decided that we just can't do the move, so we prematurely give up, not because we actually tried and failed.

If you go for the move and legitimately fall, then you've taken a huge step in training yourself to try harder, and will likely find out that falling isn't that bad.

Again, this is route specific. If you've got nothing but a crappy RP behind a loose flake separating you from a bad ground fall, you need to have some serious thoughts about your willingness to commit to an uncertain move. You've got to break it up into a two step process: assess the gear and fall potential objectively, then if you decide that a fall is safe, you have to forget about the fall and the gear and shift your focus to the climbing 100%.

The idea that the leader "must not fall" comes from a different age of climbing.

I personally subscribe to the quote "the leader must never fall", its not that I don't trust my gear, if I didn't I wouldn't climb above it. Its mainly due to the fact the trad routes I like to climb are multi pitch routes and there are two lives on the line, mine and my partners.

Is it likely that all my gear will rip and my belay will blow and me and my partner get hurt or die if I fall? Probably not, but if I don't fall then the odds are in our favor we will have a great day and both go home unhurt. I think the gear is there to protect you in case S*** happens not necessarily to learn to climb hard.

I like to climb at or slightly above my limit on single pitch routes, sport or trad where my partners risk of injury or death is very small.

That said, "to each his own" another quote I subscribe to.

Some of the best advice I have heard/read comes from the instructional booklet that comes with camalots:

"Train yourself to imagine the entire pitch as a system of protection. Never rely on a single piece of pro to keep you off the ground."

If you are unintentionally finding yourself in situations where you are relying on one piece, you should probably place more pro.

Mount Lemmon is a tricky place to learn to trad climb. Protecting routes can be as/or more demanding as the climbing itself.

Robert 560 wrote:The idea that the leader "must not fall" comes from a different age of climbing.

Even minor falls on trad routes can lead to serious injury. Most sport routes tend to be on smoother rock with less ledges and protrusions, and are much more often overhanging. The style used in trad climbing involves a lot more jamming and using odd features, which ups the danger a lot regardless of the holding power of the gear. That's just my experience anyways, I shattered my ankle when my foot didn't release from a toe jam three weeks ago. I only fell ten feet, but now I'm screwed for months.

Assess the situation, and if the calculated risk pans out for you, go for it!!

I took 2 very short whippers on gear while cragging last night. My climbing would not be the same if I hadn't taken a few whippers on gear.

"Falling is not an option"

You'll know when these are words 2 liv bye

common sense...sometimes falling would suck.
falling at cochise would often suck
falling at paradise forks can be pretty darn fun and pretty darn safe.

"If you fall you fail" Erickson

I agree with Chris that falling is a key component to improving. The real difference between world class climbers and the rest of us has more to do with their willingness to test gravity than genetics. Until you can push yourself right to the edge of possibility you will never come close to reaching your potential as a climber.

As far as sport vs trad, I think that many people place way to much trust in bolts being in the right place for a safe fall. I can think of many more times that I have been sketched out of reach of the next clip than run out with no pro in sight on a trad climb. At least when I get to a run-out on a trad climb I generally know it because I cannot see my next piece. The shiny bolt in the distance has lured many more climbers to an injury I would think.

Aid climbing helps build confidence in what your pro can do. When you weigh a few C2 pieces and see how bad a cam can be and still hold it helps build confidence in a buried cam or stopper.

Have Fun!

Kevin Stricker wrote: The shiny bolt in the distance has lured many more climbers to an injury I would think.

I'll whip on small nuts if I know they're bomber and not the only thing between me and a ledge (or ground fall). On the other hand, I just got back from Alaska where we were stretching out pitches for a 1,000 feet with a single screw every 200 feet. Falling wasn't an option. The bottom line: the leader must know what he (or she) is doing.

"The sport is called climbing, not jumping, falling, or failing. Falling is anti-climbing. I don’t know why those folks even consider themselves climbers. It’s all pretty damned lame if you ask me." --Roland Thompson, in this interview.

Incontrovertible truth: If you don't fall, you won't fall to your death.

Robert 560 wrote:The idea that the leader "must not fall" comes from a different age of climbing.