Belaying a second straight off the anchor with an ATC

I enjoy using my ATC guide straight off the anchor but it is a pain to lower somebody and has a bit of friction so it is tiring. Before I bought that I was using the Munter hitch with success but it freaks people out and can kink the rope if you keep your partner tight.

I have seen a few people belay a second straight off the anchor with a regular ATC. While not a recommended feature in the instruction manual, is there a reason not to do this? I have not tried it but it seems that it would work fine. You would just have to remember to brake up which might prove awkward.

Thanks for the input. I have found that the redirect for me is hard to pull, kinks the rope, and jerks me into the anchor (I am light) hard when my second falls. Not to mention it loads up one piece with ~2X the climbers body weight when the second falls. Lots of people like it though.

I have switched to belaying straight off my harness a lot for non-hanging belays. Making sure to keep your body in line with the anchor and direction of fall and the anchor tight.

Typically you do not have enough force with a regular atc for breaking straight off an anchor. You can add a locking biner to the anchor at the side of the atc then run your rope through the atc then up through the locking biner down to your partner to get the fiction and holding power you need. you should have three bends in the rope if you set this system up correctly.
The Munter hitch works great and if you use it right shouldn't kink the rope. You have to remember that the brake hand on a munter needs to be out on the strands of rope not braking like you would with a stitch plate. if you let the ropes run parallel the Munter works great.

not that it answers your question, but i love my new reverso3, especially for belaying the 2nd off the anchor in autoblock mode. no more pinched thighs or awkward stances when my second is hang-dogging or working on a stuck piece.

I like my reverso3 also.

I read a book about knots and rope management last summer that stated a muenter will not kink the rope if you are careful to keep the break strand as in-line with the load strand as possible. They were suggesting that the kinking issues with the muenter are a little bit of a myth. I don't know myself but I have also read that a lot of Euros belay with the muenter exclusively.

mschlocker wrote:I enjoy using my ATC guide straight off the anchor but it is a pain to lower somebody and has a bit of friction so it is tiring.

You will have to compromise somehow. I belay directly off the anchor with my ATC Guide, I think it's a lot easier than going off the harness or redirecting. The rope makes a big difference with this, I have a 9.7mm Beal dry rope that feeds very smoothly. I do not often have to lower someone, but if I do it is not that hard to use a sling to pull the braking 'biner up and release the tension to lower, OR use the nose of a keylock 'biner in the little hole to pull off some tension.

Don't belay with an ATC directly off the anchor, even if you redirect the brake side as mentioned before it's just not that great of an idea. If you don't redirect and your 2nd falls, you'll be stuck there in an awkward position trying to hold the brake side up. If you redirect the brake side it doesn't feed smoothly when pulling in slack.

You might try belaying directly from the anchor with a Trango Cinch or Grigri, you get the advantage of a lock-assist if your 2nd is hangdogging, and lowering is easier (especially if you redirect the brake side higher on the anchor). This is another piece of gear you have to haul, though.

I think there's another way you can do it with the guide -- I'll post a pic along with the sling-pulley method in which I just use my waist as the counter-release to keep it smooth & controlled.

The gri-gri or cinch works & allows for an instant ratchet on a haul -- but I can't get away from that bounce; it's not as smooth & is difficult to keep that sweet spot.

I think it would prove awkward to brake off with a regular ATC. If you positioned yourself high on the anchor and extended the ATC below you with a couple slings, you could break off normally, but, again, I think the awkward factor would mitigate the ease of lowering.

Personally, lowering on an ATC-guide is not a huge issue because it isn't often called for. You only need to lower if the person is bailing or needs to lower to regain the rock; this is not a common scenario in my experience (I'm definetly not saying i don't bail). Locking off, on the other hand, is something I do with every pull in of slack. So, the ease of lowering gained would not offset the hassles.

A little tip I stole from a guy at the gym is tie a little loop of cord through the lowering thread in point so you don't have to thread a sling through your guide every time you want to lower. Just clip in an extendo draw to the little loop, run it through the anchor, and clip in at a good length to you PAS, weight, and lower.

And, another little tip I have is using a cinch instead of a guide to belay off the anchor. It is much easier IMHO, but your mileage may vary.

Evan

Rick Blair wrote:I read a book... They were suggesting that the kinking issues with the muenter are a little bit of a myth.

It's no myth. It happens when your second whines for you to keep them super tight. I used this a lot when I was learning to climb and would drag anybody (mostly against their better judgement) up behind me as long as they could belay.

After reading the posts and thinking about it, it seems everybody agrees you will find belaying directly off the anchor with an ATC diffiult mostly because it must be lowered off the anchor to just the right spot so you can belay but still hold the brake hand up to hold a fall. Thus, not recommended by the manufacturer.

Tie into the anchor very snugly, so there is very little slack in your tie-in. (This ought to be the way you tie in anyway.) Clip your atc to the loop of your climbing rope tied into your harness (and optionally into the belay loop of the harness---I usually clip both). Belay in the usual way for belaying off the harness.

The tie-in has to be snug enough so that the load comes onto the climbing rope tie-in loop immediately and so is transmitted directly to the anchor. If you tie in with a clove hitch, there is absolutely no problem or time consumption getting the adjustment in the tie-in instantly right. Although you are in the harness belay position, the harness is not loaded; you are belaying off the anchor, and are not doubling the load as you would in a redirect. Because the atc is in the harness belay position, there is no problem braking, holding, and lowering.

mschlocker wrote:I enjoy using my ATC guide straight off the anchor but it is a pain to lower somebody and has a bit of friction so it is tiring.

Belaying off the anchor is optimum for a few reasons and of course it needs to be bomber. As mentioned above, no doubling of fall forces from follower due to pulley effect. Also, easy belay escape in the event of emergency. Some argue emergencies are very unlikely. Hence, not a good reason. With that same logic, don't change the batteries in your smoke alarm.

Lowering with an ATC guide/Reverso is quite smooth and easy with minimal practice. First, that little loop used for lowering is completely superfluous. I used to do what Evan1984 mentioned (attaching a little loop of cord) before I realized this. All you need to do to lower is attach a sling to the locking biner an the back side of your atc/reverso (forget about that extra "release" loop on the device). Thread it up through a biner higher on the anchor and down to your harness. Now use your body weight to release the autoblock. CAUTION: THIS WILL COMPLETELY UNLOCK YOUR DEVICE. BE SURE TO HAVE YOUR HAND ON THE BRAKE! With a little practice you will be able to lower your partner with ease using your body weight almost exclusively. I believe this is what Mark Nelson was referring to above.

mschlocker wrote:Before I bought that I was using the Munter hitch with success but it freaks people out and can kink the rope

Tell your partners to get over it. The munter is as good as its users, just like any belay device. Munter belaying won't kink if you don't keep um tight. Repelling certainly will. I never leave home without my munter. I can't drop it or break it. I used it twice this January. Dropped my atc once, forgot it at the belay once. Never fails.

Munter is the shizzy, and can be used efficiently-if you forget your Reverso. Reverso in autoblock off the achor is the way to fly though. Rarely do you have to lower anybody, you can have both hands free for photos, or simply to scratch your balls. Jaaron

bdel.com/scene/beta/qc_kp.p…

mschlocker wrote:I enjoy using my ATC guide straight off the anchor but it is a pain to lower somebody and has a bit of friction so it is tiring.

Try sticking your nut tool in the little hole of the guide and you can use like the lever on a gri to lower. Don't think its recommended by BD but it works for me for a short lowering. YMMV

Greg D wrote: All you need to do to lower is attach a sling to the locking biner an the back side of your atc/reverso (forget about that extra "release" loop on the device). Thread it up through a biner higher on the anchor and down to your harness. Now use your body weight to release the autoblock. CAUTION: THIS WILL COMPLETELY UNLOCK YOUR DEVICE. BE SURE TO HAVE YOUR HAND ON THE BRAKE! With a little practice you will be able to lower your partner with ease using your body weight almost exclusively. I believe this is what Mark Nelson was referring to above.

If you go to Trango's web site, this is in the instructions for how to use the B-52.

I love my ATC guide in auto-blocking mode. It feeds MUCH more smoothly with a smaller (< 10mm) rope. Get a 9.8, 9.5, or smaller (I love my Mammut Serenity 8.9) cord and it works great.

It is true that lowering is a pain, but I almost never have to lower in a situation where I am top-belaying. If you have to lower often enough to warrant it, you should be able to setup a system that makes it relatively easy using a sling redirected through a biner up higher in the anchor system (pretty sure it's described in the instructions for the guide).

Greg D wrote:All you need to do to lower is attach a sling to the locking biner an the back side of your atc/reverso (forget about that extra "release" loop on the device). Thread it up through a biner higher on the anchor and down to your harness. Now use your body weight to release the autoblock.

Is it just me, or does this sound dangerous if, for example, the belayer slips... oops, I just weighted the belay release and took my climber off belay! I suppose as long as you don't hook it to your harness unless you actually need to lower, it would be fine. It also sounds impossible, or very difficult, to use at a hanging belay.

Maybe I'm just not getting it. I'll have to try it in a controlled environment and see how it works.

My earlier post was a bit of a "drive-by". I should have looked at the docs before I posted. Here is Trangos method trango.com/pdfs/B-52FAQ.pdf

It is a little different than what Mark Nelson and Greg D describe.

Geoffrey M wrote: Is it just me, or does this sound dangerous if, for example, the belayer slips... oops, I just weighted the belay release and took my climber off belay! I suppose as long as you don't hook it to your harness unless you actually need to lower, it would be fine. It also sounds impossible, or very difficult, to use at a hanging belay. Maybe I'm just not getting it. I'll have to try it in a controlled environment and see how it works.

You answered you own question. The only reason you would hook it up like this is to lower someone. And yes, this would be more difficult at a hanging belay.