Boulder Canyon Ratings vs Clear Creek Canyon Ratings

Does this mean my 8a.nu score card is totally bogus???
Damn the man in bolted armor!!!

Bob D'Antonio wrote:I think a lot people on this site are younger or haven't been climbing that long enough to understand the compression of grades that happened in the 60's, 70's and early 80's.

It probably didn't help to go out and try and sandbag one another either.

r = [(s)3(t)(0.3o)(0.2d)]/[(h)(p + 1)(d)(y)] + L

Where r is rating, s is strength required, t is technique required, o is overhanging factor (degree of angle from horizontal, ex: one degree of overhang beyond vertical=91°), h is hold size, L is length of climb, p is number of rest stances, d is the average distance between bolts (or runout factor) and y is the year the route was established.

Note: this formula applies only to sport climbs, as all trad climbs are consistently rated.

Source: 90%ofstatisticsare.com/made…

I agree with Jeff, whose age belies his insight. As long as ratings are consistent within an area, they are a valuable tool for assessing relative comparisons between routes.

As for grade compression and sandbagging, I find this a very interesting area in the history of our sport.
I hereby suggest that we end the original thread of comparing apples and oranges and instead, focus on this new topic of conversation: Grade Compression & Sandbagging.

Bob mentioned “The Big Three” of The Gunks, Eldo/Boulder and Yosemite. It is true that for an unprecedented span of years, the locals of each of these areas considered their domain the true center of the universe.
This was back in a time when, as long as you traveled to other areas, you could know a good percentage of the country’s climbing community, all one-hundred-twenty of them.
I cut my climbing teeth in the Midwest, an area notoriously known for grade compression and “sandbagging.” Taylors Falls, MN and Devils Lake, WI were two of the last areas to convert from the antiquated American Decimal System (ADS) to the current Yosemite Decimal System (YDS). The American Decimal System had an F9, and later, an F10 ceiling. Any line harder than F9 (which was roughly the equivalent of 5.9) was given the all encompassing grade of F10. This meant that any route graded from 5.9+ to 5.15 would receive the esoteric F10.
From my experience in the Midwest, I’ve also noticed that most climbers there tended to regard themselves and their local area as suffering from extreme delusions of grandeur. Meaning, they always felt that they took a second seat to “real” climbing areas, such as The Big Three. We always felt that what we were doing was way behind what climbers in The Big Three were doing, so when one of us pulled off a really hard new line, we felt that it must be easier than what Bridwell in The Valley, or Stannard in The Gunks were doing. We graded our lines accordingly by unintentionally under-grading the difficulty, though we imagined the grades were spot on. This attitude of assuming that you are behind the rest of the climbing world actually stimulated some Midwestern climbers to push into the forefront of cutting edge free climbing. Pete Cleveland, a Devils Lake local, was climbing as hard or harder, than anyone in The Big Three, when he was in his prime.
So, there was this unintentional sandbagging due to grade compression and then there was the good natured and really fun form of sandbagging visiting climbers. With an early and unrefined national grading system (ADS and early YDS) the scene was ripe for sandbagging of incredible proportions.
Climbing lore of yesteryear is full of accounts of glorious sandbags. Back then, most climbing tales were passed on by word of mouth. There was no internet to disperse information in real time. Stories became myth. Myth became legend. I regret that younger climbers of today will not experience quite the same experience of story telling while sharing a campfire in The Tetons, Camp 4 or Taylors Falls. I’m sure that the generation that came before me may believe that I have missed out on many of the subtle, yet distinct, nuances that were inherent in climbing during their day.

Sandbagging definitely went on, and I can relate to the downgrading if you were a smaller area because you didn't want to over state your "hardness" and look like a fool if one of the big boys came to your area. Taylor Canyon in Gunnison was definitely like this, although a lot of the times sandbagging has more to do with a visiting person not being in tune with your particular type of rock.

The well traveled hard guys didn't have this problem, so when Dunn, Donini, Barber came into your area, not only did they have no problems with your sandbags, but in many cases they raised the top end in your area. It definitely was a more innocent time.

One of the great sources of personal pride was when your local guns showed that they could keep up with the guys getting headlines in Mountain and Climbing magazines. In Gunnison though the ultimate test was to just go down the road apiece to the Black, the great equalizer, and then everyone's true colors became immediately apparent.
Edit - (mine being yellow:)

I need to ask probably a stupid question her so I apologize. I have been climbing for a little while and have always heard the term "sandbag", what does this mean exactly?

Does anyone have any favorite trad classics in Clear Creek? BoCan has some famous names, but any not-to-be-missed 4 star trads west of Golden?

Shawn Mitchell wrote: does anyone have any favorite trad classics in Clear Creek? ?

Naked Kill, Brennivin, Roadrunner, 30.06, Crack a Beer, Semi Automatic, and a few more not on MP yet...

and Bone Collector on Quarry Wall on North Table.

Darren Mabe wrote: Naked Kill, Brennivin, Roadrunner, 30.06, Crack a Beer, Semi Automatic, and a few more not on MP yet... and Bone Collector on Quarry Wall on North Table.

Go away Darren, you're scaring the children. :)

Let's see: 5.12dR, 5.12+, 5.12a, 5.11-(OK, I'm listening...and great name, too) 5.11, 5.11d, 5.12b/c.

Any mortals have any favorite trads in Clear Creek, 5.7 (I take kids sometimes, so hell, 5.5 or 6 for that matter) to 5.11?

oh, and Crackside 9+. good fun.

EDIT: also may look into the Rebel Wall. old obscure trad and mixed stuff from moderate to hard. some of the Rebel info in the guidebook came from Alvino Pon, who FA'd much of it.

and stuff on Lookout mountain crag. great TR place too for the kids.

Shawn Mitchell wrote: Go away Darren, you're scaring the children. :) Let's see: 5.12dR, 5.12+, 5.12a, 5.11-(OK, I'm listening...and great name, too) 5.11, 5.11d, 5.12b/c. Any mortals have any favorite trads in Clear Creek, 5.7 (I take kids sometimes, so hell, 5.5 or 6 for that matter) to 5.11?

And this is the problem with inconsistent ratings. 30-06 is 5.11a. Reefer Madness is 5.11a. They should feel about the same right?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Not So Famous Old Dude wrote: And this is the problem with inconsistent ratings. 30-06 is 5.11a. Reefer Madness is 5.11a. They should feel about the same right? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Reefer is a bolted face route. .30-06 and Roadrunner are trad cracks. so, no, they shouldnt feel about the same.

besides, .30-06 is the left crack which is more like 11d/12a (height dependent), right crack, Roadrunner more like 11a (unless you have it ruthlessly wired and its a 5.10+ handcrack). Reefer, on the other hand can feel like 10+ to tall people, and 11- to short people. but thats a separate thread...

Darren Mabe wrote: besides, .30-06 is the left crack which is more like 11d/12a (height dependent)

Help Darren. The MP page on 30.06 says it's the right crack and goes at 11 minus. To this climber, the difference is big :)

yeah i always had quite a bit of confusion on the history of these routes names. i knew them according to Mark's older guides, but relatively recent posts by Lugbill, Achey, and Hamilton seem to indicate otherwise. maybe i will get casey to change the name on his post, and i will change the name of roadrunner on my post. but good point.

i know i am causing a thread drift, but, i have a sneaking suspicion hamiton aided the LEFT crack in 69, named it Roadrunner, and Jeff chey freed it and called it .30-06. as far as the right one, perhaps it was unnamed, but frequently climbed back in the day, and eventually named roadrunner.

now i think i made myself confused more.

Darren Mabe wrote: Reefer is a face route. .30-06 and Roadrunner are cracks. so, no, they shouldnt feel about the same. besides, .30-06 is the left crack which is more like 11d/12a (height dependent), right crack, Roadrunner more like 11a (unless you have it ruthlessly wired and its a 5.10+ handcrack). Reefer, on the other hand can feel like 10+ to tall people, and 11- to short people. but thats a separate thread...

Well, whatever you want to call it, I'm talking about the crack on the right - I thought everyone had decided that was really 30-06 now. Plus, there is a 30-06 shell casing (or a proxy thereof) sitting in a pocket at the top to make the point. :)

But, the fact remains, when you get off of 30-06, you know you just climbed an 11a. When you get off of Reefer Madness, you know better.

Not So Famous Old Dude wrote: Well, whatever you want to call it, I'm talking about the crack on the right - I thought everyone had decided that was really 30-06 now. Plus, there is a 30-06 shell casing (or a proxy thereof) sitting in a pocket at the top to make the point. :) But, the fact remains, when you get off of 30-06, you know you just climbed an 11a. When you get off of Reefer Madness, you know better.

sounds good to me.

Bob D'Antonio wrote: Sandy Stewart and I did maybe the second or third ascent of 30-06 back in 1981 or 1982. I thought it was at least 11d and told Mark about it when his guide came out.

Bob, did you climb the right crack or the left crack?

Circling back to the history of ratings, in general is there a real source on how everything played out "back in the days" and how the system really evolved? It'd be an interesting read for some of us younger climbers.

Bob, you looking for a new book to write???

Over the past year I've learned the hard way that most climbs put up before the 80s need to be respected (especially those in the 50s and 60s) and just cause it's a 5.7 doesn't mean it's a cruiser (when compared to a 5.7 say put up in the 90s).

The absolute top of the YDS system was just 5.9+ for some period of time? I had no idea.

Bob D'Antonio wrote:..rated 5.10+ when freed in the early 70's...consensus now has it at 12a/b.

that's quite a spread -bob were there climbing shoes back then..? (maybe the difference could be also be cause they were climbing barefoot :)

wow ~top o'3~ -nice summit- quiet up here...

took the newly excited 'bout CO & enthusiastic visiting-future-super-resident *shear* up to BoCyn today. S'always nice to show someone around, makes me appreciate it all-over-again. Weather today = stellar x2

Ryan Brough wrote:r = [(s)3(t)(0.3o)(0.2d)]/[(h)(p + 1)(d)(y)] + L

This formula clearly lacks the coefficients and variables for hand size and arm length. Duh.