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Why No Climbing Local Clubs in the US?

Original Post
Mike Larson · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined May 2006 · Points: 95

So sitting here literally sick on a Sat night and figuratively sick of the flame wars on the 'Vote No AC' thread, I figured I'd post this question which has been bugging me for a long time (brace yourself, because its a long one).

In short, why are there no climbing clubs in the US like there are in Europe; namely ones that allow climbers a place to meet and team up with other climbers and that put together trips and expeditions to other climbing areas around the world?

Background: Having climbed around North America the past three years, I've quite often run into groups of climbers (anywhere from 4-12) from Europe or Asia who as members of their local climbing club were taking part in a trip to such classic climbing destinations as the Canadian Rockies, Yosemite, etc. I've talked to quite a few of them and they mention that their local climbing club acts as a place to meet other climbers and put together trips and expeditions to other parts of the world. The trips are planned and those who are available can then sign on for them. These clubs vary widely in terms of formality: very informal gatherings of a few people to clubs as bureuacratized as the CMC or the Mountaineers, but most falling somewhere in between.

The US seems to only have the heavily bureaucratic sort that cater mostly to hikers and through their bureaucracy stifle initiatives and trips rather present people opportunities. The American Alpine Club (which I am a member) ostensibly has sections but these cover huge geographic areas and I have never once heard of people meeting and putting together trips from them (they seem to exist for annual dinners and like).

The reason I mention this is that while I never have trouble finding partners for local outings here in CO, finding partners for trips to other parts of the country and, more acutely, for trips outside the US is extremely difficult: jobs/families take precedent, schedules don't align, etc. I've posted in the 'International' partners forum before with virtually zero luck. When I do find someone, it is usually only one person and big trips simply work better with more people (economies of scale with respect to lodging/cars/gear/etc). It seems like the people that do go on big trips belong to some super secret society of hardmen that never deign to climb with mere mortal climbers. In the US it seems as if the only way one has a chance of doing a big expedition/trip to the Himalaya or Alps or Andes is to be part of the super-climber clique or to sign on to a guided expedition. Yet in Europe and Asia local climbing clubs organize such trips for climbers of more modest abilities all the time. Even in Canada, the ACC has a pretty robust sectional system that puts together trips and allows local climbers to meet up. Moreover, less experienced members can be mentored by those who do have the experience.

So why haven't such clubs caught on in the US? They seem like such a good and obvious idea. Ideally, such a club would hold occasional (bi-weelkly or monthly) 'meetings' - preferably at a local bar - and would exist primarily as a forum for putting together large trips but also to meet up with other climbers. It would be informal - no websites or skill levels or group gear - and it would not get bogged down with planning weekend trips to Lumpy or Shelf or wherever. A monthly email would inform people of proposed trips (if they missed the 'meetings') and allow them to get in touch with others (via a listserv). Again, such a club would exist to introduce other climbers and put together large trips; not to put together big group trips to local crags.

I'd love to hear to arguments for and against such a thing. Also, do such things exist that I'm not aware of and I've simply missed the boat (in which case can someone fill me in)?

Tim McCabe · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 130

While not exactly what you are talking about but here are two that I know of though I am not sure of their current status there was in 91 when I lived there a Memphis Mountaineers club. But maybe it should have been called the mountaineer as there was only one club member who had ever climbed a real mountain. The rest were mostly moderate rock climbers, good natured people who were looking for a way to kill a week night (once a month) talking about climbing. Don’t get me wrong they did get out and climb together mostly road trips (nearest climbing was 5 hours away) and they had just before I got there done a trip to S America. I saw the slide show about it they climbed to the top of a giant plateau. The leader wanted to do a big aid line but no one else on the trip was interested so they did a long 3rd class gully route just to get to the top it looked like an amazing place.

I went to Memphis for a work I found out about the club at the one very small out doors store in town. I joined the club to try and meet some local climbers and I did get to most of the meetings and went on numerous road trips with the group. After 5 months I was ready to get out of there and went back to the Needles in South Dakota where I could climb every day.

That was the spring that I worked for Andy at Devils Tower he needed extra guides to help out with the Iowa Mountaineers Club there were 31 clients and 6 or 7 of us as guides including Andy. We got 25 of them to the top in on the first day and the other 6 the next. From the sound of things it was a pretty big club, but I don’t know if they did the kind of big world class type trips like you are talking about.

May be you live to close to the climbing and so it is too easy for folks to just get out and climb when ever they want to with out having to plan road trips and car pool to the crags. In the Black Hills as I recall they have a Climbers Coalition but that is more about access and other local issues.

Oh and what about collage clubs the UofA has one I think and guy I knew from Phoenix went climbing with the ASU club again not international but a start.

DaveB · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2007 · Points: 1,075

In terms of organizations, groups....are you a leader, or a follower?
Much of what you mention simply involves someone taking responsibility for planning and logistics.

If you take the initiative, plan professionally, and follow through with your stated goals, people may be willing to put their trust in you (via time and money), possibly generating the opportunities you seek. Start locally, with small, simple, short-term (2-3 day) endeavors. Develope a good, proven reputation for organizing people and projects that cater to your (and their) desires, and make sure everyone (mostly) has a good time. If things go well, expand your goals. Perhaps you will create the entity/club/network you wrote about in your OP.

Check out - Climbing: Expedition Planning (Mountaineers Outdoor Expert Series) by Clyde Soles and Phil Powers.

Eastvillage · · New York, NY · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 80

We are the cowboy nation and getting climbers together is like herding cats.

How many of us have enough trouble arranging to climb with one or two partners, let alone getting 6 to 12 to any given crag?
Also, our local geography seems to favor keeping it simple.
Many of us live in cities or regions with very good local crags, usually within day trip range and with very good stuff within weekend drive range. New York City, Boston, Denver, Salt Lake, San Francisco, for example.
And for better or worse, we Americans are very busy and usually have other activities that need our attention.

Mike Larson · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined May 2006 · Points: 95
DaveB wrote:In terms of organizations, groups....are you a leader, or a follower? Much of what you mention simply involves someone taking responsibility for planning and logistics.
Trust me when I say this is never the issue. On many of the trips of I do I handle all of the above said. I never find it to be a question of putting together trips; its a question of finding people who are able to go along on such trips and actually willing to commit.

Tim your experience of climbing clubs in the US is much as mine. Groups of hikers or very 'part-time' climbers who get together to do big trips to local crags or, very occasionally, to other parts of the US. These exist more as a social club than any sort of serious climbing club. These clubs don't have the skills or motivation to plan and execute big trips around NA and the world.

And as I mentioned in the OP, such an entity shouldn't exist to herd large groups to local crags. I've never liked such groups hogging up a million routes. Such a thing should exist for two primary reasons: to plan large trips to other parts of NA/the world and to introduce fellow climbers who have such goals/interests. Again, I never have any problems finding partners for local cragging; I know I - and many others - have major issues finding partners for big/extended trips.

DaveB wrote:Perhaps you will create the entity/club/network you wrote about in your OP
Part of the purpose of posting this was to gauge if there was any interest. I would be more than willing to put some time and effort into such a thing, if other people expressed interest.
DaveB · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2007 · Points: 1,075

Mike Larson wrote:
"....its a question of finding people who are able to go along on such trips and actually willing to commit."

Yes, I understand, this can be very frustrating....even for mere daytrips.

To answer your question...I agree, establishing some kind of international network organization of like-minded, travel-oriented climbers (willing to commit) would be welcome, and I would probably participate in such a thing.

As for trip logistics, however, seems the best way to get commitments is to collect "good faith" money in the early-mid stages of organizing a trip. (i.e....deposits...) While not the most casual way of handling climbers, people do tend to follow through when they've laid out some cash in advance. But, of course this needs to well-organized and handled by a proven and trusted entity/person, which can get into the realm of travel agencies, guiding companies, and, god-forbid, social "outdoor" clubs (especially when dealing with relative strangers' and/or aquaintances' money).

Is this what you had in mind?

Mike Larson · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined May 2006 · Points: 95
DaveB wrote:Mike Larson wrote: "....its a question of finding people who are able to go along on such trips and actually willing to commit." Yes, I understand, this can be very frustrating....even for mere daytrips. To answer your question...I agree, establishing some kind of international network organization of like-minded, travel-oriented climbers (willing to commit) would be welcome, and I would probably participate in such a thing. As for trip logistics, however, seems the best way to get commitments is to collect "good faith" money in the early-mid stages of organizing a trip. (i.e....deposits...) While not the most casual way of handling climbers, people do tend to follow through when they've laid out some cash in advance. But, of course this needs to well-organized and handled by a proven and trusted entity/person, which can get into the realm of travel agencies, guiding companies, and, god-forbid, social "outdoor" clubs (especially when dealing with relative strangers' and/or aquaintances' money). Is this what you had in mind?
Essentially all I had in mind was something similar to the Europeans: an informal 'club' or whatever you want to call it of local like-minded climbers who like to put together trips to distant parts of NA and the world. The problem with finding people for such trips is that if you have a limited number of climbing partners (as most people do) the chances that your schedules/responsibilities/finances will align to do big trips is usually very limited. Most people have lives outside of climbing which makes it hard to carve out time for such trips and even when they can, their schedule might not match up with their partners (this happens to me all the time) or they might not have the money to do the trip. What a 'club' does is it pools a larger number of climbers who like to do trips. In such a case, I might propose a trip to the Cordillera Blanca for June. If the club had 20 or 30 members, likely 80% or 90% would not be able to go along due to work/family/schedules/whatever. This would leave a group of 4-6 people who could do the trip (a very reasonable and ideal number for such a trip). A guy who couldn't do the trip in June might then propose a trip to the Canadian Rockies in November for ice climbing because it better fits his schedule. Because of the large pool of climbers, it is likely he will be able to find partners for the trip. Additionally, since the club consists of 'local' climbers (say for instance, climbers based on the Front Range of CO) the person will know these people better than say posting for a partner here on MP. This will be a big plus because generally on big trips you want to know and have climbed with your partner prior to attempting a big objective. Thoughts?
DaveB · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2007 · Points: 1,075

Perhaps a series of affilated local climbing "clubs" (online or other) managed/hosted by a national parental entity. Each club could maintain a "local partner calender" whereby members could block out "dates available" for trips (with optional details and goals). Other members can then see if something interests them, and/or if schedules coincide.

Mike Larson · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined May 2006 · Points: 95
DaveB wrote:Perhaps a series of affilated local climbing "clubs" (online or other) managed/hosted by a national parental entity. Each club could maintain a "local partner calender" whereby members could block out "dates available" for trips (with optional details and goals). Other members can then see if something interests them, and/or if schedules coincide.
Dave, that is very much what I had in mind except that I think I would eschew the 'national entity' portion of it since I think such a thing would likely invite bureaucracy. Unfortunately, I think the response to this thread largely speaks to question I initially posed: such things simply don't generate much interest here in the US. This thread seems to be a two-way discussion between us and no one else. I'm going to try to launch such a thing with the ten or so climbing partners I have and then have them try to wrangle in more people, but honestly I'm not optimistic. Such an endeavor needs probably 20-30 people to be viable. Here in the US there seems to be three ways to go on big trips: go as part of a guided expedition; be a guide/uberclimber that has tons of guide/uberclimber friends; or move to Europe. I just might have to do the latter (Geneva looks like a pretty sweet city) since I don't see myself in either of the former anytime soon.
Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880
Mike Larson wrote: Dave, that is very much what I had in mind except that I think I would eschew the 'national entity' portion of it since I think such a thing would likely invite bureaucracy. Unfortunately, I think the response to this thread largely speaks to question I initially posed: such things simply don't generate much interest here in the US. This thread seems to be a two-way discussion between us and no one else. I'm going to try to launch such a thing with the ten or so climbing partners I have and then have them try to wrangle in more people, but honestly I'm not optimistic. Such an endeavor needs probably 20-30 people to be viable. Here in the US there seems to be three ways to go on big trips: go as part of a guided expedition; be a guide/uberclimber that has tons of guide/uberclimber friends; or move to Europe. I just might have to do the latter (Geneva looks like a pretty sweet city) since I don't see myself in either of the former anytime soon.
Mike, I am a member of 2 internet "clubs", both functioning out of Yahoo groups. One was originally intended for South Metro climbers focusing on Douglas County and road trips, the other for climber parents w/ kids. There are 2 key factors in how well they function. The first being someone coming up with an idea, the second being how well the stars align in terms of who all participates.

There is an ebb and flow to these things, for example right now is the Summer doldrums. Being so hot out there limits enthusiasm, as does home projects. But come Fall, activity will spike. Also, people drop out and new ones join. I think a trick to this is finding a balance as to how big they get. MP has thousands of members, its too big for this sort of thing; the forums would really clog up with all the back and forth messages. But if you only have a handful of members you are better off simply having an e-mail ring.

For the most part, they work. I was just out yesterday and met some new people based on one of the clubs. My access to partners is quadruple from that of a few years ago. I suppose that if a real type A were to join, trips would be more frequent; but perhaps all the planning would get a little annoying too.

One thing, I noticed on your profile you list only trad as your favorite type of climb. Which is fine, although a bit limited IMO; so try this: go to Yahoo (or another portal), set up a group- say trad climbers from Aurora- then post an invite to join here. You might be surprised who all joins.
Doug Hemken · · Madison, WI · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 13,668

Mike, I can think of two clubs here in the Midwest that function pretty much as you describe. They tend to be pretty low-key, and you would seldom guess that they are an organized group if you ran into either one at the crags.

Don't know anything about your area.

There is huge variation from group to group in terms of who joins and whether or not they have a lot of formal organization, and any one group will vary over time depending on who joins.

Also, small groups tend to be pretty homogeneous in their goals, but larger groups typically contain lots of smaller subgroups (it's the nature of the sport that big groups and harder technical climbs don't mix very easily). I've watched lots of people enter and then exit a large club just because they didn't quickly find the group within the club that best matched their interests. Or maybe they *did* find those people, and decided they didn't need to continue meeting new people.

To function well in a larger group I think you have to be interested in meeting people in their variety, patient enough to get to know people, and patient enough to sort through those people who aren't really interested in the same climbing goals as you. And you have to find the people who have a similar work/free-time schedule, a not insignificant consideration.

Mike Larson · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined May 2006 · Points: 95
Mike Lane wrote: Mike, I am a member of 2 internet "clubs", both functioning out of Yahoo groups. One was originally intended for South Metro climbers focusing on Douglas County and road trips, the other for climber parents w/ kids. There are 2 key factors in how well they function. The first being someone coming up with an idea, the second being how well the stars align in terms of who all participates.
This is essentially what I had in mind. How effective is it at putting together big trips and road trips? Do people ever propose expeditions to Alaska, the Andes, the Alps, Himalaya, etc? Or does it many exist to get out to local climbing locations and the occasional trip to Indian Creek? As I mentioned in some of my posts before, I know many such 'clubs' exist but they all seem to consist of part-time climbers who want to get out locally. I'm envisioning something for more serious climbers who want to put together big trips/expeditions to locations throughout NA and the world. If yours are different please do pass along some information on them if you don't mind; I'd be more than interested to join.

Mike Lane wrote:I think a trick to this is finding a balance as to how big they get. MP has thousands of members, its too big for this sort of thing; the forums would really clog up with all the back and forth messages. But if you only have a handful of members you are better off simply having an e-mail ring.
I absolutely agree. MP is way to huge for such a thing. An email ring is exactly what I proposed earlier along with the occasional 'meeting' at the local bar just to meet people face to face.

Mike Lane wrote: One thing, I noticed on your profile you list only trad as your favorite type of climb. Which is fine, although a bit limited IMO.
I haven't updated that portion of my profile in a loooooong time and the only reason I selected that was you had to select one to be included in the partner finder. Alpine has always been my #1 pursuit honestly. You'll see from my other stats that I consider myself somewhat of an all-rounder, though ice/mixed is certainly what I'm strongest at.

You Yahoo idea is intriguing and I may try to put it to the test. Though honestly I'm going to define 'local' a little more broadly as Front Range since the percentage of climbers in the state who actually do big international trips is likely pretty low. I'll wrangle my current group of climbing partners into it and then maybe advertise for others here on MP to see if they might be interested. Thanks for the great input.
Mike Lane · · AnCapistan · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 880

Oh what the hell; lets get Jeff the Gatekeeper busy. This is the South metro group, like I said a bit dormant right now. Perhaps with an influx of new members it'll pick up (although I really think the heat is slowing things down a lot). It can be as serious as those who participate can make it. If nothing else, here is what such a group looks like:
groups.yahoo.com/group/DCCC…

And something else to remember, its really like herding cats.
They function on 2 levels, one is day to day announcements, the other is devising a bigger plan (IE a road trip).

Ryan Tuleja · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2005 · Points: 10

Hey Mike,

Is that climbing with kids group still up, and who's running it? I'd love to find some parents to meet up with and do some climbing!

Tim Stich · · Colorado Springs, Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,520

Here's the kiddo one. They got out to Castlewood Canyon last weekend.

groups.yahoo.com/group/colo…

And one more, for all of the Front Range but more leaning towards the Denver/Boulder continuum, of which I am sadly rather distant from.

groups.yahoo.com/group/fron…

The key with these lists is to be active yourself on them. Post up what you want to do and when. You'll end up making some new climbing partners without a doubt, then you'll probably stop using the list. That's how you get the slowdowns. They are best for after work pickup climbing and road tripping.

GMBurns · · The Fucking Moon, man, the… · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 470

I think there's a couple of things going on here. One is that there are groups, probably just not in excess where you are. A little bit of searching in your area might yield some results. For instance, I have a yahoo group in the Boston area that has worked rather well. However, despite the fact that it has about 50 members, only about 10 or so are active (monthly), and only about five or six are really active (weekly). While I did create this group as a means to find other climbers, I didn't do it with the intention of creating a bureaucracy. All I wanted were partners.

This leads me to my second thought: that Americans are a bit less community oriented than are Europeans. I don't mean this to be a declarative black-and-white statement, but I feel that my experience in living in Europe showed me that Europeans are more likely to band together in clubs such as what you're speaking of because they exist fairly regularly in other walks of life. They just don't really exist in the format that you're seeking here, and I think part of that reason is the opposite of community: the individual. Like I noted above, I started my group not because I wanted a group, but because I was fulfilling a personal need.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is probably a behavioral difference in that a climbing group seems natural in Europe but not in the US due to personal outlooks on life. Because Europeans value community more, they are more likely to embrace such ideas. Does that make sense at all?

My recommendation is to just keep searching for partners until you find those who share your dreams and goals. That's what I've done, and it works fairly well.

BTW - I didn't really appreciate the group atmosphere in Europe while I was there, regardless of the activity. It just didn't fit me, and I found many of my American friends also did not enjoy / participate in such clubs.

Mike · · Phoenix · Joined May 2006 · Points: 2,615

There is one here in Arizona:
azmountaineeringclub.org/

Jeff Fiedler · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 0

Climbing section of the Potomac Appalachian Trail Club operates in the Washington DC area. They did regular Wednesday after work climbing at Carderock and Great Falls, local weekend stuff, and also organized ice climbing trips through the northeast.

Climbed with some great folks there.

Aaron Lowry · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 0

There is a mountaineering club called at seracclub.org out of Orem, UT which covers the Wasatch Front. I've been a member for about a year and been on a couple local trips that have been pretty successful. They have done some pretty large scale international trips as well which have gone well from what I've heard. You ought to check them out. You could possibly model a similar organization after theirs. Any member that wants can plan a trip at any time. A local mountaineering store sponsors the club and allows members to rent/buy gear at a discount.

Mike Larson · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined May 2006 · Points: 95
Aaron Lowry wrote:They have done some pretty large scale international trips as well which have gone well from what I've heard. You ought to check them out.
This is what I'm most interested in. For all the responses to this thread, this is the first that has actually mentioned a group/club/whatever that actually plans international trips. All others seem to exist primarily for local outings - something I'm not interested in since I never have any issues finding partners for cragging. With the help of some climbing friends, I'm in the process of putting together something similar. We'll see how it goes.

GMBurns wrote:BTW - I didn't really appreciate the group atmosphere in Europe while I was there, regardless of the activity. It just didn't fit me, and I found many of my American friends also did not enjoy / participate in such clubs.
I'm curious if you might elaborate as to why. Having been over there as well and having conversed with many European climbers, the clubs seem to act more as a nexus that a group outing vehicle - in other words, that they are used to put together trips and introduce local climbers but not ferry large numbers of people to local crags and peaks (ie. what clubs here in the US are best at doing).

A good example: I recently met a guy from Cali whose mother is Austrian. He had just come back from his first expedition to the Himalaya which he was able to go on thanks to a local climbing club he had joined while he had been living in Austria for a year. He was only 23 and said that he would have never had such an opportunity to go had he not been a member. The expedition was organized by older members with previous expedition experience and saw it as their role to pass along such experience to the younger members. Additionally, these older members already had all the needed gear to conduct a major expedition which the younger climbers would not have been able to afford had it been up to them alone. Such is a common practice in Europe yet is exceedingly rare in the US, to our detriment.
GMBurns · · The Fucking Moon, man, the… · Joined Jul 2008 · Points: 470
GMBurns wrote: BTW - I didn't really appreciate the group atmosphere in Europe while I was there, regardless of the activity. It just didn't fit me, and I found many of my American friends also did not enjoy / participate in such clubs.
Mike Larson wrote:I'm curious if you might elaborate as to why. Having been over there as well and having conversed with many European climbers, the clubs seem to act more as a nexus that a group outing vehicle - in other words, that they are used to put together trips and introduce local climbers but not ferry large numbers of people to local crags and peaks (ie. what clubs here in the US are best at doing). A good example: I recently met a guy from Cali whose mother is Austrian. He had just come back from his first expedition to the Himalaya which he was able to go on thanks to a local climbing club he had joined while he had been living in Austria for a year. He was only 23 and said that he would have never had such an opportunity to go had he not been a member. The expedition was organized by older members with previous expedition experience and saw it as their role to pass along such experience to the younger members. Additionally, these older members already had all the needed gear to conduct a major expedition which the younger climbers would not have been able to afford had it been up to them alone. Such is a common practice in Europe yet is exceedingly rare in the US, to our detriment.
I fully understand what you are suggesting, and don't think it is a poor solution, but the whole group atmosphere just didn't sit well with me. Everyone seemed to always be doing trips with everyone else in the group, and it seemed claustrophobic to me. I guess I prefer to get away from crowds, and the outdoor experience for me in Europe was less about getting away and more about bonding in a group setting. Sure, I learned a lot in an environment I probably wouldn't have learned for a long time had I gone it alone. But when it comes to being in the outdoors, I prefer to get away from people as opposed to moving closer to them, and I personally think there is an American mindset in that in such a way that contrasts to how Europeans view and use the outdoors. I can't really say why that is, however.

Many of my American friends had a similar feeling about the various groups they joined. Some people enjoyed the meet-ups at a local bar, but I didn't. I wanted to climb and paddle (the two main groups I was a part of), not drink and socialize, and there was a lot of both. I learned that if you didn't commit to the group, then the group was less willing to commit to me. That makes sense on the surface, but what happens to the people who have other commitments and just want to get out every now and again? Must we be sent to the corner without dinner just for not participating fully? Like I noted above, I value the individual more than the community (and I feel that many strong individuals makes for a strong community), and the groups over there seemed to value the community more than the individual. There was a lot of consensus on activities and what to do and where to go. The groups worked rather well like this, but I was less interested in doing things that everyone else wanted to do and more interested in doing what I wanted to do instead. I much preferred meeting people with similar goals to mine, and found Americans (and Canadians, too) to be much more amenable to the idea of just doing something on your own instead of going through a group. It just didn't fit my style.
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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