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Cunning Linguist · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2007 · Points: 1,200

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Paul "Disaster Master"Humphrey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 15

Personal property is just that, be it in your home, a diner, or even a cliff.

Theft is theft, and saying someone deserves it because they differ in their climbing methods is stinkin' thinkin'.

Give them back and grow up.

Aaron S · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 150

Who the hell leaves fixed draws at the pier? If I left a bunch of draws sitting in the parking lot I wouldn't bitch when they weren't there a month later.

Is this the same guy that had a rope and draws fixed on the left side of the cliff all summer?

trundlebum · · Las Vegas NV · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 85

I don't get it ?

Is this thread about the inverse of 'Hippy Law' ?

Not familiar with 'Hippy law' 'eh?
That's the one where your buddy moves away. he asks if before he goes "can he stash his surfboard under your house, it will only be for two months, until when I come back to town to get the rest of my gear"

Two years later... You sell the board.
Four years later the guy returns.
After the dust settles he asks "whatever happened to my surfboard?"
You respond:
"ahh, I sold it, I didn't need it, I had a good stick,... sorry you know 'Hippy Law"!

What is this thread about ?
'sport climber's law' = "I lunge therefore I am(rule/r)"
Is this a tale of self absorption to the degree that someone feels it is blasphemy that they can't in 2007 leave expensive equipment laying around in public places?

I am being serious. Help me out here?
I am just getting back into climbing and therefore the climbing community.
I've always known a bunch equipment unattended to be called "booty".

Yet in this day and age with the influence of the internet, I see things like, people offering to mail a #4 cam back to someone in las Vegas that left it in Indian creek.
That is a wonderful thing... in a way, in a way it is hard for me to understand.

I am confused.
of course it is honorable to offer to rescue/return someone else's property that was left for the whims of the public. Yet it is not immoral to 'be the public'.

I thought you resolved this type of thing in your pre-teens?
"finder's keeper's looser's weepers" that was the taunt !
Then you take it up with ADULTS. As a child you, acceptably, whine and plead your case for the return of your property.
If you are lucky, you get your gear back. If not, not! Either way, you got a scolding from your parents for putting yourself in the position by being so irresponsible with your toys, er I mean equipment.

Help me out here ?
Don't get me wrong, I think it would be great, I truly hope this guy gets his gear back.

But what is the difference between this guy and a fellah that might leave an expensive dual suspension mountain bike on the corner of 'Trop and Maryland' over the weekend ?

Is it because he is 'projecting' a climb ?
What does that mean any way ?
Isn't that the polite way to say:
"rehearsing the shiite out of it, till I finally get up it"
Is the term 'projecting' an immediate cure all for:
"I lunge therefore I am. All other beings should recognize my physical prowess as a mark of my social rank and therefore I shall be granted the universal recognition of being able to leave expensive toys laying around in public places and those toys shall go untouched, because ... I lunge therefore I am"!

Now I know that sounds snyd, but after listening to the poster "Paul Humphrey",
I feel absolutely guilty, down right cheap,
for recognizing that we don't live in a perfect world.

He says: "saying someone deserves it because they differ in their climbing methods is stinkin' thinkin'. Give them back and grow up."
That makes me think that perhaps I am safe in assuming that mr. Humphrey is the one who left his mountain bike 'on the corner of Trop and Maryland' so to speak.
Mr. Humphrey, I don't get it?
I hope you get your gear back I really do in all sincerity.
But seriously didn't your mom and dad teach you to take care of your toys?

The only way I can see it is you think your famous enough that all the world beyond your navel should know that it is your gear and it is your right to leave it unattended, and unhindered in a public place ?

I realize I will get flamed mercilessly for all this prose but I mean come on.
I don't even know where the 'pier' is, but 'vegastradguy' posts:
"nice pair of bolts on top the cliff that facilitate easy TR setups and in this case, draw removal."

Forgive my ignorance but it sounds to me like some arrogant kid left his toys on the playground and is now all pissy.
Is this not the case ?

Next time instead of calling the local climbing shop,
try taking the time to take care of your toys.
You were not burglarized. No one "broke and entered"
They did not smash a window or jimmy a lock to take your toys.
You left them in the middle of the playground and went home!

Signed:
was I gone that long ?

no1nprtclr · · Front range Colorado · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 55

I think trundlebum hit the head right on the nail. Stop crying about your lost stuff and next time be more responsible: pack it in, pack it out. So do you leave your car with the keys in the ignition with the windows down at the airport and expect it to be there a week later? How does Carlos Mancia say it: duhr da duhr! Don't blame others for something you could have and should have prevented. I don't condone theft, but also don't advocate for stupidity either.

Marc H · · Longmont, CO · Joined May 2007 · Points: 265
trundlebum wrote:'sport climber's law' = "I lunge therefore I am(rule/r)"
Priceless; I love it. I too am somewhat baffled that someone left some "[expensive] 'draws" on a route, then has the gall to ask for them back. Said person can't afford multiple sets of draws. Maybe said person shouldn't have left their only set of draws hanging from a route with an easy walk-around and accessible bolts on top. I guess I've got a different mentality altogether: I carry out what I carried in; what a concept! Maybe it's just the way I was raised.. er, taught to climb.

I understand that not all sport climbers leave draws hanging for long periods of time and not all boulderers stash crash pads in wilderness areas. There's a big enough debate as to whether bolts should be in certain areas. I would think that most climbers would have enough common sense to realize that transportable items like 'draws and pads should be carried in and out with every use.

I know: That's crazy talk.

--Marc
Jason D. Martin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2005 · Points: 857

Everybody's assuming that this was a malicious act that was somehow anti-sport. The reality is that someone who didn't know anything about ethics at all probably came by and saw the draws. After a brief moment of wondering if someone was injured and thus had to leave their draws, the indivdual probably said, "score!"

And that was that.

The sport climber looking for his draws would do well to ask questions around the campground. If anything remotely like my theory is correct, the person will probably have no problem returning the draws with apologies.

Jason

Paul "Disaster Master"Humphrey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 15

You guys are all cracking me up.

Marc H · · Longmont, CO · Joined May 2007 · Points: 265
Paul Humphrey wrote:You guys are all cracking me up.
Right on! I'm glad my post for good for something

--Marc
trundlebum · · Las Vegas NV · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 85

"This is pretty rich - a bunch of crotchety trad climbers discussing the nuances of high-end sport climbing. Ha Ha
How funny would it be if there were a pack of sportos arguing the relative merits of ground up lead bolting from free stances vs hooks."

I will be chuckling at that observation for a while =)
Since we have this thread going-

It seems to me, with all the change and growth in climbing,
the same old observation applies:
"unless you need a wrench to remove it, there is always the chance..."
It could be a hiker, an uwitting rapeller, or perhaps even...
uuuh ooh- a competitive social member (say it not so!)

I was amazed, horrified, stoked, happy , mad, sad....
when I first saw the practice of fixed draws, outside of a gym.
It has an undeniable, negative impact for non tech climbing area users.
Yet, hey it's 'give and take' there's enough to go around for all.
At least for now and hopefully generations to come,
Red Rocks has the volume of resource that is able to sustain us all.

Our climbing area is immediately adjacent to a metropolis.
The bulk of the sport crags are adjacent (relatively) to a parking lot.
It's pretty safe to say:
"If it's not bolted down (and the nut beyond finger tight)
with time, it WILL walk away"

So what's the ethics in sport ?
Would it be cool/ not cool, wise or perhaps antagonistic...
for a person 'projecting' a climb, to go get a 1/2 dozen of those screw links and snug'm with a wrench ?
Is that uncool to the people that can climb the route onsight or with few repeats ?
What are the issues ?

I say take your gear home with you at the end of the day.
But then spending a month getting a draw 60 feet of the ground was never quite my bag.
But I sure can appreciate th effort.

lukas Jordan · · Iowa City, IA · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 205

live and learn and don't remember your mistakes. it helps to keep less wealthy climbers with gear and climbing. so for you who have the funds to leave booty lying around i salute you as charitable climbers giving back to the less fortunate in our passion. keep it up i love to see the trad racks and sport racks with oddball gear when i met climbers. i brings me a smile to my face to know that we as a whole do give back to the poor. thanks you and keep up the good work. i am not so charitable and maybe one day i can learn from your kindness and give back to my fellow man. i don't think i really will but who knows. i may learn more from you than i have thought on showing compassion to those in need. take care and god bless

Indianclimber · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2007 · Points: 0

Next time instead of calling the local climbing shop,
try taking the time to take care of your toys.
You were not burglarized. No one "broke and entered"
They did not smash a window or jimmy a lock to take your toys.
You left them in the middle of the playground and went home!

Classic Trundlebum

Hey I like the avatar pic!

jed botsford · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 5

The Pier is located on Public land. Once again it is Public land. All of Red Rock is public land; it is not a climbing gym. Any gear left on public land longer than 24 hours can be considered abandoned property and can be removed.

trundlebum · · Las Vegas NV · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 85
jed botsford wrote:All of Red Rock is public land: it is not a climbing gym. Any gear left on public land longer than 24 hours can be considered abandoned property and can be removed.
W00000 h000
Nice and concise jed.
And I guess that means I get to keep the hand full of cams and couple draws I discovered casually waiting to be plucked, while climbing this morning ?

It was like Christmas out there today ;)
A little rain, numerous bailed on routes...

I don't get it ?
I was out with a partner Friday, climbing in the rain.
Sure we went aiding because of the rain but still, we didn't leave anything but webbing on a block, for a rap anchor.

Actually we did leave stuff behind.
Got back to the car, in the rain, in the dark and my partner is missing his Blackberry.

We went 1/2 way back by headlamps, no go...
Nothing sited.
So my partner was up early the next morning (before work) and leaving the park (Blackberry in hand).
He isn't upset about loosing a Blackberry, because he didn't loose it, instead "he took care of it"!

It isn't like the old days anymore, of going way out on a limb/off route to get that one cam or nut left from a retreat.
These days it seems to be bragging rights to spout about long falls and lost gear.

You guys can keep falling,
I'll keep climbing.

And to the guys that are going around leaving 1/2 a rack behind to retreat from 30' up a hand crack that has an easily attainable bolted sport anchor at the top...
And if nothing else, going back immediately after the weather clears...
I will buy you breakfast(and lunch) if you let me know where you plan to go out next time the weather gets a little 'iffy' ;)

sincerely
signed:
'My rack keeps getting fatter'
Darren S · · Minneapolis, MN · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 3,388
trundlebum wrote: I don't get it ? I was out with a partner Friday, climbing in the rain.
Climbing in the rain in Red Rock? I think you said it best yourself ,"I don't get it".
PLEASE DO NOT CLIMB IN THE RAIN AT RED ROCK. PLEASE WAIT 24 HOURS AFTER THE END OF THE RAIN. IF YOU ARE A LOCAL YOU SHOULD TRY TO WAIT EVEN LONGER TO SET AN EXAMPLE FOR OTHERS TO FOLLOW.
CmH Hunter · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 40

"And to the guys that are going around leaving 1/2 a rack behind to retreat from 30' up a hand crack that has an easily attainable bolted sport anchor at the top..."

If this was Black Track there was an accident. Some guy broke his ankle and was taken to the hospital, leaving the gear behind. Refer to the main page or RC.com... his friend went back to retrieve the gear, but it was gone.

I hope I didn't spoil Christmas day...

trundlebum · · Las Vegas NV · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 85

Yes Crista:
It was I who found the gear.
And yes the owner was contacted immediately .

His ankle is doing ok. He got medical attention that afternoon.
In talking with him on the phone he said he is sure of a speedy recovery,
however his medical may not coverage may not take care of his expenses.

Jason will be coming back through town in a few days
and picking up his gear on his way back north.

He needless to say was stoked for the call,
knowing he was going to see his gear again.

His was not the only gear on the crag,
there was many other pieces.
Jason said were there when he and his partner had gotten there.

trundlebum · · Las Vegas NV · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 85

So with Jason resolved:
Who's gear was on the direct finnish to "Black Track"
and the top of "Left out" ?

trundlebum · · Las Vegas NV · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 85

In re to: Darren Snipes

Well not to stray from thread topic:
(scolding for climbing in the rain accepted, but I accept it defensively)

Er.. Umm
Well Darren:
My partner and I are wanting to do some of the classic Red Rocks grade V's.
Perhaps something on the Rainbow Wall ?
Before I stand in aiders or yard on jugs again for the first time years,
I feel it more than prudent to put in a little practice.

Before I met 'said' partner I had this overhanging seam picked out way back in the end of the summer.
I thought I would 'Save it for a rainy day', one to cold to comfortably go free climb.
I knew I would be lucky to find a partner that was willing to:
1. get involved in a short overhanging aid climb
2. coordinate for any unpredictable day that would be appropriate.

My partner and I went out to the crags and got rained on. On the way out of the park we discussed it and decided to go do this climb.
We were quite calculating about it. We discussed the nature of the route, the gear needed, the weather conditions etc. It did not seem inappropriate to me at the time, but what do I know ? I am a total noob !.
My partner on the other hand has been poking around the local crags for years and certainly would know 'better' if it went against his better judgement.
he was game, so I grabbed the opportunities to:
1. to have a fun outing in otherwise adverse conditions
2. put up a neat little aid route
3. get a refresher in 'trash and dangle' from gear.

The only part of the climb that was wet, was the last 10' to the ledge.
The crag is as yet completely undeveloped/untouched
(no damage to any existing route, not even anywhere's near an established crag)

with re to:
"SET AN EXAMPLE FOR OTHERS"

I am not a local, nor am I all that familiar with sandstone.
However I am not a fool either.

I will do plenty more climbing at Red Rocks.
(there's tons of booty out there)
One day I just might be caught out in a situation that is not completely under my control.
(as was this situation)
when that day comes I will be glad I had chosen to get a feel for what can happen,
while under very predictable circumstances.

I have no remorse, should I ?
The only human encounter we had were voices of hikers coming though the mist,
as we hiked back to the road. En route, My partner commented at the uniqueness of conditions, and the blessing it was to be able to see it/be part of it.

I did not go out and snap holds of some precious, 5.bazillion sport route.
I did not go dancing around on mega exposed saturated slabs.
I was not running it out, five miles off a hex jammed in glorified mud.
I am not a fool.
I had a great day.
I would do it again!

Guide books are by no means gospel.
The often have huge discrepancies from the actual.
They can not offer you true experience,
only point you in the direction of it.
They can not instill judgement.

As a climber with your broad experience you know,
Often the best adventures are not in the book
(as in this case)

However guide books do have their place.
Just as beer is:
'way more than merely a breakfast beverage"...

bbrock · · Al · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 955

Does anybody have any good acid. This seems like the the right crowd to ask. Where did it go? Did it just fall out after Dead tour ended. If anybody has any I have some fixed draws I stole a few years back that I can trade.

Ken Cangi · · Eldorado Springs, CO · Joined Jul 2005 · Points: 620

Oh God..... Not again.

When are you guys going to learn that if you keep pulling on that dog's tail that it will eventually turn around and bite you in the ass? If you leave nice draws on easily accessible routes, then it's only a matter of time until they will become someone's booty.

If you value your expensive draws, then DON"T leave them unattended on routes. And if you aren't bright enough to heed that simple warning, and the inevitable occurs, then please don't open threads in here to whine about the injustice of it all.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Nevada
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