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zion guidebook?

Original Post
Jordan Ramey · · Calgary, Alberta · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 4,251

Hey, I'm headed off to Zion and the surrounding area in a month. Is there a good guide available. We figure on hitting a wall (moonlight, touchstone, or something) and then free climbing routes up to the 5.10 level. I've got the free topos to some of the walls, but is there some comprehensive book to throw in the car? Thanks

John McNamee · · Littleton, CO · Joined Jul 2002 · Points: 1,690

There isn't a good definitive guide for Zion. The following books have sections referring to Zion with probably Stewart Green's Climbing Utah Guide the best of a bunch for a visiting climber since it covers areas around St George, etc as well.

Spend some time at the National Park HQ photocoping routes and researching before you launch. Save plenty of time for this.

Climbing Utah
amazon.com/Rock-Climbing-Ut…

Zion rock is worthless.
amazon.com/Zion-rock-finest…

Desert Rock - Rock climbs in National Parks
amazon.com/Desert-Climbs-Na…

Selected climbs in the Desert South West
amazon.com/Selected-Climbs-…

When I was down there in October I herd rumors that a new guide book is in the works but I've heard that for a number of years as well!

Have a great trip.

John McNamee · · Littleton, CO · Joined Jul 2002 · Points: 1,690

There is also the new guide by Sharpend books

sharpendbooks.com/prod.php?…

Rock climbs of the Desert Southwest for the St George Area.

Jordan Ramey · · Calgary, Alberta · Joined Jun 2006 · Points: 4,251

Thanks, that definitely points me in the right direction.

bsmoot · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 3,183

The folks at the shop, Zion Rock & Mountain Guides just on the left, as you enter Springdale, can give you a lot of good beta. The new guide, currently being written, is on geologic time.

John McNamee · · Littleton, CO · Joined Jul 2002 · Points: 1,690

That's also a good place to grab a shower as well.

Dane Peterson · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2005 · Points: 15

The Desert Rock-Climbs in the NP'S is basically worthless. I was in Zion for a week in the end of october and had less then plesant experiences with the topo's. The approach and descent beta are good, but that's about all. Zion Rock and Mtn. Guides has a couple of three-ring binders with topos in them. These are a good resource. We ended up there a couple of times after realizing that our guide was bunk.
Good Luck, Be Safe

Marc H · · Longmont, CO · Joined May 2007 · Points: 265
bsmoot wrote:The folks at the shop, Zion Rock & Mountain Guides just on the left, as you enter Springdale, can give you a lot of good beta. The new guide, currently being written, is on geologic time.
I bought an apparently very basic topo/guidebook in this shop, I think, a couple weeks ago for 25% off.. all of their climbing gear was 25% off.

I'd definitely stop in there if you get this message before you head out. Bring cam hooks on moonlight, but use them judiciously!

--Marc
Monomaniac · · Morrison, CO · Joined Oct 2006 · Points: 17,295

Egads! Please don't use camhooks on Moonlight (or any other trade route in Zion). Moonlight has bomber placements the entire way. Bring Metolius 0 and 00 TCU's (or equivalent) for the thin stuff.

Marc H · · Longmont, CO · Joined May 2007 · Points: 265
Monomaniac wrote:Egads! Please don't use camhooks on Moonlight (or any other trade route in Zion)
Marc Horan wrote:Bring cam hooks on moonlight, but use them judiciously!
There is at least one section on moonlight that would be impossible to aid through (and virtually impossible to free with aid rack on) for short people, without the use of a camhook (or a cheater stick). The cam hook can be used judiciously there without damaging the rock.

--Marc
Josh Janes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2001 · Points: 9,954

Please use a cheater stick and NOT cam hooks!

Marc H · · Longmont, CO · Joined May 2007 · Points: 265

My 135#/5'3" self stood on 3 different cam hook placements on Moonlight Buttress two weeks ago without damaging the rock. It can be done; judiciousness is the key.

Added later:
I don't agree that someone should rob themselves of the opportunity to make an exciting aid move or two (without damaging the rock) by cheating through a section. I'm not sure if that was the intent of your post, Josh, but that's what I got from it. Sorry if I misinterpreted it.

With that being said, let it also be know I have been on other (granite) routes and used a cheat stick to avoid pulling out the hammer. I am definitely not 'above' such techniques. I understand that granite and sandstone are completely different animals. The point I'm trying to convey is that it's possible to use cam hooks on sandstone routes without damaging the rock under specific conditions. (ie short, lightweight climber)

--Marc

Joe Collins · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 930

Absolutely do not use cam hooks on Zion trade routes, especially free routes. Cam hooks are not clean aid on desert sandstone.

JamesW · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 285

Do not use cam hooks on Zion trade routes...the rock is super soft & hooks will damage the rock...anyone who says otherwise is plain wrong...& you do not need hooks or a cheater stick on Moonlight...I'm assuming the spot in question is on pitch 2 where you move around the roof...it's an easy 5.9 move to a bomber cam placement...suck it up!!!

Marc H · · Longmont, CO · Joined May 2007 · Points: 265
JamesW wrote:I'm assuming the spot in question is on pitch 2 where you move around the roof
Your assumption is wrong. I did not even lead the second pitch.

JamesW wrote:anyone who says otherwise is plain wrong
I'm not a liar. I don't appreciate being called one either.

--Marc
Marc H · · Longmont, CO · Joined May 2007 · Points: 265
Joe Collins wrote:Absolutely do not use cam hooks on Zion trade routes, especially free routes. Cam hooks are not clean aid on desert sandstone.
Absolutely do not come into a forum and presume to tell other climbers what style/ethic to climb in.

--Marc
Marc H · · Longmont, CO · Joined May 2007 · Points: 265

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Do you still want to call me "plain wrong," JamesW? Or do you want to revise your overly blanket assertion that camhooks can never be used on Zion trade routes without damaging the rock?

--Marc

Josh Janes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2001 · Points: 9,954

Marc, I know and have climbed with both you and Joe. You're both good guys and would like each other. I don't think anyone here is trying to call anyone else a liar or trying to start fights.

I think the point that everyone would agree on is that none of us want to see great routes like the Moonlight Buttress damaged. Us free climbers all know that Moonlight wouldn't even be climbable if it were not for aid climbers nailing on it, but I think both aid climbers and free climbers alike aspire to a more clean style. It is certainly possible that Marc used cam hooks without damaging the rock on his ascent a couple weeks ago, but everyone I've talked to has told me that Moonlight can go completely clean (and that includes not risking the use of camhooks). Why not aspire to the cleanest (best) style possible?

Marc, perhaps you could tell us exactly where on the route camhooks were necessary for you and then, if there's an aid climber out there who has done that section cleanly, they could respond, for the enlightenment of future parties, as to how it could be done cleanly (and without the use of a cheater stick).

Marc H · · Longmont, CO · Joined May 2007 · Points: 265

Josh,
I don't have a problem at all with inspiring the "cleanest (best) style possible." My problem lies within someone coming into a forum and implying that I am 'plain wrong.' I took offense to the comment, but I was not trying to inspire a fight. My physical stats should attest to that :).

Marc Horan wrote:My 135#/5'3" self stood of 3 different cam hook placements...without damaging the rock
JamesW wrote:hooks will damage the [Zion trade route]...anyone who says otherwise is plain wrong
I truly am all for inspiring the cleanest ascents possible, especially on sandstone. My original comment was:

Marc Horan wrote:Bring cam hooks..but use them judiciously!
If those two guys had come in and said any one of the following:

"Cam hooks are unnecessary for even an all-aid ascent of Moonlight Buttress."
"Cam hooks should only be used as a last resort."
Or even: "I urge you to leave your camhooks on the ground for your ascent of Moonlight."

..I can assure you that I would not have disagreed with anything like those statements. But I do have a problem with someone implying that I'm lying. I cannot come up with any other intention behind that particular part of JamesW's post (as quote above).

Thank you for giving me an opportunity for clarify that, Josh.

--Marc
John McNamee · · Littleton, CO · Joined Jul 2002 · Points: 1,690

Marc,

I'm curious to know where you used the cam hooks? Have you ever used Lowe balls or sliders before?

Good to see that you taped the the cam hook. Carrying a piece of leather on a cord works very well in soft rock as well and helps spread the load. I do this will almost all hooking in soft rock.

Thanks.

john

JamesW · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2007 · Points: 285

Geeze Louise...this is silly, I'm signing off.

BTW...I don't think a little athletic tape will stop a hook from scarring the rock.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Southern Utah Deserts
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