Route Hogging Ethics

I have been climbing at the lake for about the last 8 years, but have stayed away from east bluff this summer to work on some other areas - due to traffic on the East.

I went back to the east last weekend and was disappointed in the ethics of a # of the climbers, especially those that know what is going on, along with some organized groups that should know better.

I want this to be an open discussion - so please provide your thoughts...

I spent all day walking by ropes that no one was using. I noticed 1 group of 2 that had congrats crack, sometimes crack, and a few other climbs hung - but only worked a single rope at a time. I also noticed that these 2 were loosely part of a 5-7 person group that "controlled" the entire area from mouses wall to sometimes crack, multiple ropes going unused for hours at a time.

It is one thing to have the crag jammed pack with people actually climbing, but it is disappointing to see experienced climbers using this tactic to siege an multiple areas.

I could go on regarding this topic, but would rather stop and open it for discussion...

Hi Eric,
I haven't climbed at The Lake for over twenty years, but I do know that is is common climbing etiquette to share a toprope when it is already strung. Did you ask the climbers if you could jump on their cord? I would be suprised if anyone said no, especially if their is nobody on the rope.

Tom,

I guess the answer to your question is yes, but this is a touchy subject in two directions for me...

1. Usually if I drop a rope near anyone, I always offer it up - which is different than having to ask, or having someone ask me... infrequently have I been asked to hop on a rope without feeling like I was actually imposing - I think you know what I mean.

2. As climbing has become more popular in the past years, education on best or safe practices has went in the opposite direction(simply my opinion). I would never climb on anyones rope without knowing them for a number of reasons... safety, how they care for their equipment, their level of knowledge(I know it is only a top rope) etc.

I think my major point is... I shouldn't have to ask, and they shouldn't have to offer. With the # of people at the lake on a given weekend you shouldn't be leaving a rope over a climb for the majority of the day with it getting little to no use.

Having been a Chicagoan for 16 years, I'll hazard a guess/thought. DL, being the closest & best climbing to 10 million+ & a 2+ hr drive, I'm guessing that reserving a spot at the hill with a rope or 6 isn't too distant from the thought of reserving your place at your favorite restaurant on a Friday or Saturday. It's a lot easier out west, more crags, fewer folks. Still, folks race up to be first in line on popular routes.

Yup, welcome to Wisconsin! Make every effort to go to DL midweek--change your work schedule, or, get to your climbing spot at 3:00 a.m. and take a nap. Best of Luck!

I'm pretty sure at 3 AM on a Weds morning there is still going to be a toprope on Briton's Crack...

Weekday trips are definitely the time to hit the east bluff. Take advantage of the long days in the summer to get out during the week if you can; it's worth the effort.

Part of the problem is that so few people actually lead routes at DL. This wouldn't be a problem if the cliff was not a walk-off. Since that is not the reality of DL, and given what those said above, then my suggestion would be to start leading more often. If a top rope is set and no one is climbing, then simply step on up and send. Problem solved. Besides, if you don't send you can always rap their line and clean your gear!

I understand it is nice to top rope a route above your limit; it is an especially good way to end the day. However, top roping a crag into submission is poor style, IMHO.

Cheers,

Joe Ferrare

Back in the day it seemed that everyone at DL was in the know about rope/route sharing. If you set up a route for TR and then leave it, well, it then becomes fair game for anyone to hop on. With the popularity boom of the early/middle 90's, people were showing up who didn't bother to learn the local ways (not really ethics). But these people had to learn... somehow right? So even if they didn't like it, I would inform them of this DL Way, and that was that. Open lines. Educating the masses. Weather or not you want to trust the set up is another question.

Also, back in the day, leading always, note always took precedent over a set up TR. Sure, people did not always like it when we would cut in, but hey, style is style, and that is important.

I am out in the GUnks right now and the same "ways" Apply out here.

If someone who is not in the know gets huffy, set them straight. If they are still huffy put them in their place and make their day as miserable as it can possibly be. At least that is what we did. Or just move on. But being a dick in the name of education can be fun no and then.

I can certainly appreciate encountering multiple topropes on a wall at DL and no one climbing, or, just one person posted to "guard" the site until the other responsible person arrives with the youth group.
Education is the key, but how you propose to do that? I don't think vigilante/posse climbing police is the answer. Lets hear some thoughtful, viable ideas that might have a possibility of changing things at Devil's Lake. Do you start with the State Park officials? Do you issue permits to climb delineating protocol and climbing ethics?

Anita - Good Call.

My first thought was to contact the local climbing gyms and talk to them regarding their practices with large groups. Maybe have designated areas for groups and work with the idea of some group "ethics". One thing that really upsets me is watching a group of boyscouts spend a day of rappelling over straight jacket, birch tree, and upper D... WHY!!!! There are better places to do this...

My second thought is to just start carrying the word and leading through action.

The last thing I want to do is involve the rangers and get into a permit situation, cause then I will never want to climb at the lake.

Any other thoughts... who said a coalition, I will make t-shirts "DL Ethics Enforcers" on the back.

Eric, if you are going to have "ethics enforcers" I think you may need to get the blessing of the State Park officals, and I highly doubt they will sanction this idea. I like the idea of talking to climbing gyms, boy/girl scout groups, church groups, etc. since this seems to be where the most difficulties are.

However, it might not be a bad idea to run some ideas past the park officals--they can be our friends. My thinking on permits was not to ask people to pay to climb, but to monitor the people climbing at DL. Sort of like trail permits issued at trailheads. For example, the permit my husband and I signed for Mt. of the Holy Cross. It asks for group size, camp locations, name address, etc., and on the back is lists leave no trace ethics. Could/would something like this be appropriate for DL? Who pays? State of Wisconsin?

Other thoughts: Talk to Access Fund about best way to approach?
UW climbing clubs? Ethics/protocol pre-climbing class before a group heads out to spend a day on the rocks? I know the Chicago Mountaineers have big groups at DL. Talk to them?

Just throwing out ideas............But, I think you need the blessing/support of the Park officals before undertaking anything.
Whatever you do must be well-organized and thought out--on paper to present to powers that be.

the chances of getting the park to do anything like that is slim and none. the park would first have to recognize rock climbing as an activity. until they do that there is no way for them to enforce or regulate anything.

i can honestly say that i think an idea like this will never happen. at least i hope it never happens. it is too much work and preparation for the park and they will get nothing in return. plus its one more thing that they have to deal with. i'm sure they want to talk to a bunch of whiny climbers who are complaining about how their favorite climb in the eastern ramparts was taken up for a day by some idiots that had the foresight to get up earlier than they did.

do you know how much rock is at dl?? i'm sure you can find another route that is just as classic within a 5-10 minute walk.

sorry for sounding like an ass but this stuff really makes me mad. it also really makes me happy that i boulder most of the time i go to the lake. i dont have to deal with you guys and i get on higher quality climbs.

steve

Steve, if climbing continues to proliferate at its current pace at DL without any intervention/management some event that happens with climbers WILL interfere with your bouldering. Yahooligans and park officials do not mix, and unfortunately climbers, unless organized, mature and articulate, will get the sorry end of the stick. Now is the time to begin putting pressure on "route hoggers" or things will most likely get ugly given the maturity level of some folks climbing at DL.

there is no need to put pressure on "route hoggers". there is a need to teach people to go somewhere else if they see their beloved classic with a rope on it. the route hoggers are doing nothing wrong. they got up early. they picked a route they would have fun on. they put a rope on it. the only people who are getting mad are the ones who cant get on "their" climb. with over 1500 routes at the lake you would think that people would be able to find a route to climb. as it happens though people just want to climb the same routes that they do every weekend.

i'm very guilty of this as well but instead of getting frustrated when i see someone on a climb, i make a descision to go to a different area that day. so what if i dont get to try my project that day. instead i get to try a new route.

there is no reason for the park to get involved. none. what are they going to do? give people a time limit that they can have a rope on any given route? route hogging has nothing to do with ethics or access issues. the park can do nothing about this and shouldnt try. people just need to spread out a little bit. if people would do that things will never get "ugly".

steve

Steve, we're talking about the large groups that hang five-7 ropes on a wall and don't climb on them the entire time they are up. I agree, get up early, get to your spot and climb, but when a youth group from Portage, WI has set up ropes on the ENTIRE WALL at 5:00 a.m, posted a guard until the kids finished breakfast and made it to the wall--that's unethical and route-hogging. These are the climbers that need pressure put on them. This scenario actually did happen. My husband said we could "John Wayne 'em" and say "We're here, there's only one of you, and we're taking over". In the long run that's not a good practice. There are better, more effective ways of dealing with route hoggers--they just take a little finesse and sometimes that means working with the government/powers that be.

Are we on the same page?

Ian,

Any suggestions about how to go about changing the behavior of large climbing groups at DL? Why the abhorrence to talking with park officials? This is an honest question! I'm just wondering why folks don't think this is the best avenue to pursue.

anita, sorry but we're not on the same page. you get no sympathy from me because you didnt get up early enough to get on the routes you wanted to. its their privelige to be on those climbs because they put in the work to get there.

earlier this summer myself and three others went to the east bluffs on a saturday morning. we got to the parking lot at about 8:00 knowing full well that we would probably be going somewhere less popular since the more travelled routes would more than likely be taken. to our surprise the lot was empty. we went up to the bluff and set up on four of the climbs that we all really wanted to try. congrats, ice, rubberman, and cheap thrills. this was our privelige since we had gotten there before anyone else. we had put in the work to get there before everyone. that said, we had people on our rope on congrats all day long. nobody asked to lead it but we would have gladly pulled the rope and let them use our anchor. people were also hopping on cheap thrills all day as well. were we route hoggers? by your definition, hell yes! everyone has "hogged" a route they loved at one point or another. if you ask people, instead of "john wayne" them, you might be surprised.

ian, in response to your comment "I've walked down the bluff numerous times unable to get on anything that I wanted to...". guess what. about 200 people also want to get on those same climbs that you want to. tough crap. sometimes you're not going to be able to do the climbs you want to. not everything is going to be perfect all the time.

as far as what happened on congrats. did the guys straight up tell you no, you cant climb it. if so, that sucks but oh well. go do a new climb that you havent done before instead of lapping the same crap that you have wired into submission. there have been tons of days where i havent been able to get on a project of mine. too bad for me.

i'm sorry if these things piss you off but get over it and get on one of the other hundreds of climbs out there. on that note, i'm going to go get excited to go bouldering this weekend where i dont have to deal with any of you guys. hell, i'll probably not see another soul out there other than my partners. have fun on the east bluff guys.

steve

Steve, thanks for sharing. I'm also glad you shared your routes with others. Sounds like you were not part of a Church Youth Group. Those are cats of another color and they won't share.

Wow, with a few exceptions, all i'm hearing are a bunch of whinning. Last I heard there were over 1000 routes and over 300 problems in the park. A day of climbing is a day to relax. Its no secret that the east bluff is crowded on the weekends. Go climbing at some of the other great crags in the park(sandstone, west rampart, rairoad, horse rampart, doorway rocks,balanced rock, cabin crags, etc) if you're tired of competeing for routes go somewhere else; it's not like someone is forcing you to go to the east bluff. Or go bouldering; there's still over 100 new problems to be done and another 100 with only a couple of repeats! If you HAVE to go to the east bluf bring a cooler of beer and make a day of it. The last thing I want to ever do is take myself too seriously. Just get after it! Peace-EB

It's kind of interesting to run across such vehement discussion of an issue that I've been hearing about for the nearly 20 years I've been in Wisconsin. Isn't there some quote about history repeating itself?

The East Bluff apparently reached its saturation point with climbers thirty years ago. (You should go find the little report Kurt Krueger wrote for the US Forest Service in the late 1970s.) Thirty years. Most of the kids now climbing up at the East Bluff weren't even a gleam in mom's eye thirty years ago!

Twenty years ago, the route hoggers that everyone loved to hate were the Iowa Mountaineers. Ironically, they were seldom actually at the East Bluff, while I *often* saw the DLFA camped out there with ropes and six packs draped everywhere. But the DLFA were cool, so no one complained. You gotta wonder what's really going on when no one complains about the self-styled "bad boys" but everyone complains about church groups, Boy Scouts, and Iowans. It's an odd twist on conformity, isn't it?

First, you need to distinguish between organized groups that don't conform to the rope-sharing norm, and errant individuals.

Everyone here understands why organized groups - school groups, Boy Scouts, and any of the guide services - don't feel they can share their ropes with people outside their groups, right? Liability is no joking matter to any group that has even a modest budget and could be bankrupt and disbanded by one good lawsuit. Groups with deeper pockets worry about the slow death of high insurance rates.

Another thing to realize is that only an inexperienced guide/group leader would take a large group of novices(> 6, say) to the East Rampart or Balanced Rock. There are plenty of high quality routes at less traveled crags where your clients/kids can better concentrate on what they are learning without all the distractions.

The Chicago Mountaineers were the group who long ago figured out how to do it right. That's part of what enabled them to write the last two comprehensive guides to the Lake.

Groups usually can't conform to the rope-sharing norms, but they can go climb on crags where that's not an issue.

SteveSchultz wrote:the park would first have to recognize rock climbing as an activity. until they do that there is no way for them to enforce or regulate anything.

It always floors me when someone states authoritatively that the State does not even recognize rock climbing.

In fact, the WDNR has the authority to require all organized climbing groups to have permits. This authority is already written into NR45 of the Administrative Code . When we were discussing this possibility with them, 10 years ago, most WDNR officials were reluctant to try to regulate guided climbing at Devils Lake (because then they would also feel compelled to regulate fishing guides), while a very vocal WDNR minority wanted to be able to require *all* climbers to have permits, "just like Minnesota." (The climbers involved in those discussions had a wide range of opinions, and the final code was written "in case we want it later.")

That's groups. Getting back to the issue of sharing ropes: encouraging individuals to conform to the norms is much easier. I always thought Sol's little Devils Lake Climbing Information pamphlet was a good starting point. The WDNR used to print and distribute that for us. Beyond that, you need an open, friendly, welcoming community that shows people sharing ropes can be fun and benefit everyone. (You also need to show people how to share safely, and protect themselves.)

The best way to manage a shared resource is ... to share.

first off, doug i respect you because obviously you have researched what you just stated.

i never said that the wdnr doesnt recognize climbing as an activity. what i said was that the park itself does not recoginze it. i have researched this while trying to gain climbing access to areas of devils lake. ask any park ranger or official and they will tell you the same answer. they know it happens, obviously, but they dont recognize or endorse it as an activity in the park. i said nothing about the dnr. sorry for any confusion on either of our parts.

see ya, i'm getting away from this stupid climbing scene for a week, and i'm goin snowboardin.

steve