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help with knee pain
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By WillDean
From Seattle
May 13, 2014

I realize the interwebs aren't the best place for a diagnosis, just curious if others have had similar experiences. I'd go to a doctor but I'm uninsured at the moment.

Symptoms:

The pain is most noticable when i completely straighten out my leg into a locked position. I can straighten the leg just fine but moving it the last bit into a locked position hurts. Not severely, maybe a 3/10. Otherwise the pain is a mild discomfort that isn't too distracting unless I think about it.

The pain seems to be focused just above and to the right of my right patella. Some tenderness when pushing in that location.

No clicking, catching, instability. No swelling or reduced ROM. No pain upon weight bearing. Ascending/ descending stairs is not a problem but I did notice the pain cropping up while skinning uphill the other day. Deep squats don't produce pain.

There was no injury that I can recall that led to the pain, seems to have developed slowly. I did move the other day and had to carry a bunch of heavy shit up a flight of stairs.

Any ideas?




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By Dallas R
May 14, 2014

You are correct in assuming that interweb diagnosis sucks. But I will throw in my 2 cents worth of worldly advice at the age of 58. You either strained a tendon or you have arthritis. If it is arthritis, if you move it around and exercise it for a while the pain will substantially reduce. If it is a strained tendon it should heal itself in about 10 days to 2 weeks, provided you don't re-injure it.

If it is a true torn ligament it will ultimately require surgery to correct. However, if you can build the muscle up around it a bit you can postpone it for a long while. Takes working through the pain though. Sucks.

If it persists for more than about 4 weeks you are hosed and will have to sign up for some Obamacare.

Get well soon!


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By jeff lebowski
May 14, 2014

Google patellofemoral pain syndrome

Medical insurance is cheap these days


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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
May 14, 2014
Bocan

jeff lebowski wrote:
Medical insurance is cheap these days


Sorry to digress, but I think it's gotten cheap for those who didn't have it prior. It's gone up or even gone away for those that did. I'll leave it at that.


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By 20 kN
From Hawaii
May 14, 2014

jeff lebowski wrote:
Medical insurance is cheap these days

Joke of the day I supposed. I would like to add that most people who are insured actually have no coverage what so ever for most items, until they meet their annual deductible (which can be as much as $5000). Then after that there are copayments, which are not cheap either. Some shitty plans only cover 30%.

Yea, the one time I used my "insurance" I found that among an xray, some lab work, a doctor visit and a follow up, I had to pay 97% of the bill because although I was "insured," all of it went toward my deductible and so in fact I had zero coverage.


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By 20 kN
From Hawaii
May 14, 2014

Dallas R wrote:
If it persists for more than about 4 weeks you are hosed and will have to sign up for some Obamacare. Get well soon!

The insurance marketplace closed a long time ago. I do not believe those who are uninsured now will not be able to purchase insurance legally until the marketplace reopens next year. Part of the "cant deny you for preexisting conditions" thing is that you can only buy insurance at the beginning of the year, thus preventing someone from remaining uninsured until they needed insurance, then using the insurance and canceling the policy after they dont need it anymore again.


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By WillDean
From Seattle
May 14, 2014

i lost my insurance when i quit my job and moved out of state earlier this month. if you move out of state you're eligible to apply for health insurance. i tried setting things up and they quoted me for $250/month, which is double the amount i was paying before... not happening.

most of the time i've been to the doctor for similar issues it's been an expensive and frustrating experience, hence one of the reasons i'm asking here.

4.5 years ago a doctor told me I might have patellofemoral pain syndrome and it went away quickly after I bought a pair of superfeet. I wasn't thinking it was pfps this time around because this feels different, but it's been a while since that injury so who knows. it doesn't hurt to bend my knee and i don't get the classic "theatre knee" that typifies pfps.

if anyone has had similar issues with pain in the knee i'd love to hear about it.


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By Ben Griffin
From Durango, CO
May 14, 2014
Bitches get Stitchez, Golf Wall, Durango, CO

Insurance is really cheap if you make $16,000 or less a year. I had similar pain in my knee before. The Dr. diagnosed it as petellafemoral something. I stretched my hamstrings, quads, and ITBand a lot and it went away. I also used a foam roll on my ITBand to smooth out that large tendon. Good luck.

Anyone get sore in the MCL regularly? My knee has been killing me there.


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By Scott McMahon
From Boulder, CO
May 14, 2014
Bocan

Rolling out the IT band always seems to help. Especially if you live in state where you are doing alot of elevation hiking, the "Colorado stairmaster" can build up too much of the wrong muscles. I try to make sure to work out all angles for my legs to keep them consistent.

When I had tendinitis of the patella I found that biking alot took care of the issue, but you'll probably here the converse of that from bikers.

I would probably quit the deep squats, and not go past the 90 degree angle for your butt.


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
May 14, 2014
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

Do a search and educate yourself on Osteochondritis Dissecans. I'm not supposing this is what you have, or that what others have listed is not. However, my symptoms were very, very similar to yours.

One thing we can all surely agree upon with regard to the cost of health care, is that it is much more expensive- especially for surgical procedures without insurance.

I would certainly try the Physical Therapist route before consulting an Ortho. The most expensive part of my surgery was the MRI ordered by my doctor. Just something to keep in mind. Best of luck.


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By 20 kN
From Hawaii
May 16, 2014

Jake Jones wrote:
One thing we can all surely agree upon with regard to the cost of health care, is that it is much more expensive- especially for surgical procedures without insurance.

Unless you just declare bankruptcy, which sadly is what most people do when they are uninsured and need emergency surgery since they often don't really have much of an option.

That reminds me of an interesting conversation I had the other week. In summary, a hospital can make more money by raising its prices, but there comes a point where continuing to raise its prices actually decreases profit because then people just refuse to pay for their services (since they cant afford it). I think we are well past that point with regard to hospitals.


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By Andrewww
From Concord, NH
May 16, 2014

I'm currently dealing with an MCL injury right now, it sucks, luckicly just a sprain/strain. However OP sounds like it could be a meniscus tear. probably going to need to see a doctor and get an MRI done.


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
May 16, 2014
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

20 kN wrote:
Unless you just declare bankruptcy,


Right. But I was referring to people that actually pay the bill.


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By john strand
From southern colo
May 16, 2014

Andrewww wrote:
I'm currently dealing with an MCL injury right now, it sucks, luckicly just a sprain/strain. However OP sounds like it could be a meniscus tear. probably going to need to see a doctor and get an MRI done.

Interesting, i was just about to suggest NOT meniscus ! i know the 2x i screwed up my meniscus, it locked and made all kinds of noise.. and any kind of squat really didn't feel good.

i just visited an ortho for a soon to be knee replacement and he gave me a ton of excercises for my knee, pretty difficult stuff.


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By Kimberley Flores
May 16, 2014

I have had torn cartilage in both knees and neither time was there an "incident." Could be that or arthritis among the other things mentioned. I currently have pretty bad arthritis in one knee and I was limping even when I walked and never dreamed of running again until I gave up gluten. The results have been amazing-I am now able to run on it (not far, but a couple miles) without any pain during or after. Gluten causes inflammation in the body and whatever you have, reducing inflammation is sure to help. BTW, I had to give it up completely for about 2 months before I saw the major results. TOTALLY worth it.
Best of luck, Kimberley


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By WillDean
From Seattle
May 16, 2014

i have also come to think the pain is not related to the meniscus as I have very few of the classic meniscal tear symptoms. no catching, no locking, no pain with weight bearing, no ROM issues. the joint is stable. interestingly, i can walk up and down hills without aggravating the injury. who knows what's up but i'll post here when i find out.

kimberly, i have tried eliminating gluten for other inflammatory conditions and have noticed no improvements. i have started a course of turmeric supplements and they do seem to be help, however. many foods are claimed to cause inflammation: all nightshade vegetables, vegetable oils, dairy, meat...the list is long. gluten is not the only culprit, but none of this is repeatedly backed by hard scientific evidence, only anecdotal evidence. same goes for turmeric, but so far it has been a wonder drug for my chronic sesamoiditis. it could be that you noticed an improvement simply because the body healed itself(movement is good for arthritis). same goes for my foot. also, i could be wrong here, but if you have osteoarthritis in your knee, i think the pain is caused by bone-on-bone grinding, not simple inflammation.


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By jeff lebowski
May 16, 2014

Not trying to diagnose but a lot of nontraumatic knee pain is associated with a quad dominant / weak glutes muscle imbalance. Many skiers, cyclists, runners are guilty of this. You might try a few months of glut strenghtening exercises. Squats are fine but they are a quad exercise if you don't go deep enough. Don't neglect glut med/min which might be more important for knee health than the big glut max.


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By WillDean
From Seattle
May 16, 2014

yeah, i've been working on strengthening the glutes, the vastus medialis oblique, hamstrings, etc. My quads are really beefy in the hill-climbing muscles but are weak elsewhere. I had patellofemoral issues before and i swear one of the most helpful things was hiking downhill. that constant lowering motion really seemed to help. i spend most of my winters ski touring, an activity that seems to build the hill-climbing muscles while neglecting the vastus medialis oblique.


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By john strand
From southern colo
May 16, 2014

Amazing that you can walk downhill OK !

LOTS of things can cause inflammation, not many things get rid of inflammation.

good luck


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By Mark E Dixon
From Sprezzatura, Someday
May 16, 2014
At the BRC

Jake Jones wrote:
The most expensive part of my surgery was the MRI ordered by my doctor.


If you lack insurance or have a high deductible, it's worth calling around and asking directly about the price for an MRI, as the cost can vary enormously. Just make sure the quality is adequate for your surgeon, that is, number of tesla of the magnet and whether dye is injected.


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By Jake Jones
From Richmond, VA
May 16, 2014
Me and the offspring walking back to the car after a day of cragging.

Mark E Dixon wrote:
If you lack insurance or have a high deductible, it's worth calling around and asking directly about the price for an MRI, as the cost can vary enormously. Just make sure the quality is adequate for your surgeon, that is, number of tesla of the magnet and whether dye is injected.



Good to know Mark. It's the only major surgery I've ever had, and hopefully I'll not need to employ this suggestion in the future. Thanks.


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By 20 kN
From Hawaii
May 18, 2014

Jake Jones wrote:
Right. But I was referring to people that actually pay the bill.

Yea, I always found it interesting that the uninsured, and therefore the least able to pay, are charged the most, and the insured are charged the least. I really cant think of a single industry with a more fucked up pricing scheme than the medical industry.


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By Emily Southwell
From 4555 Roosevelt Street San Fran
May 31, 2014

I agree that uninsured will be charged more and insured will be charged less. But apart from this issue treating the pain is more important. So, I suggest you to visit a nice chiropractor may be they will help you out.


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By KevinCO
From Loveland, CO
May 31, 2014

jeff lebowski wrote:
Not trying to diagnose but a lot of nontraumatic knee pain is associated with a quad dominant / weak glutes muscle imbalance. Many skiers, cyclists, runners are guilty of this. You might try a few months of glut strenghtening exercises. Squats are fine but they are a quad exercise if you don't go deep enough. Don't neglect glut med/min which might be more important for knee health than the big glut max.


+1

Also, tight hamstrings and quads can cause knee pain. Most people stretch there quads standing up, which misses the inner quads. To stretch the inner quads, lie on your back and roll over a little to your side as you pull your foot back towards you until your feel you inner quads stretching.

For inflammation, don't use NSAIDS, which can interfere with healing and harm your liver and kidneys. Instead use Bromelain-on an empty stomach, it is a very effective anti-inflammatory. Tumeric extract can be taken with a meal and is also a great natural anti-inflammatory.

Also, eliminate vegetable oils which are pro-inflammatory. Replace with coconut oil, olive oil(don't use olive oil for cooking-too fragile), and other healthy fat sources-raw nuts, avocados, fish oil.

The supplement CMO is awesome for cartilages problems. (True CMO by Jarrow)

Collagen Type 1 & 3 works miracles for tendon and ligament strains.
Here is a recipe for Collagen:
>1 scoop Collagen (Neocell brand)
>2 Bromelain capsules opened into the drink (2400 GDU/500mg)
>500 mg Vit C w/bioflavonoids
>12 oz water
>1 T organic apple cider vinegar
...Take only on an empty stomach and wait at least an hour before eating (replace breakfast with this).

Don't drink tap water because of the fluoride which can interfere with connective tissue metabolism and cause joint problems. If you live in Colorado, use Eldorado Spring water. Don't even use tap water for cooking. Eat only organic. A fluoride compound is used on many foods.


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By Andrewww
From Concord, NH
Jun 1, 2014

KevinCO wrote:
For inflammation, don't use NSAIDS, which can interfere with healing and harm your liver and kidneys.


NSAID's such as Ibuprofen and Naproxen will not harm your liver as they process through your kidney's, however the amount you would need to take to cause this damage is a lot more than you would think.

KevinCO wrote:
olive oil(don't use olive oil for cooking-too fragile)


Extra virgin olive oil is too fragile to heat, but refined olive oils, not that they are great for you, however are more stable with heat. Coconut oil is definitely my preference in oils, though.

KevinCO wrote:
Don't drink tap water because of the fluoride which can interfere with connective tissue metabolism and cause joint problems. If you live in Colorado, use Eldorado Spring water. Don't even use tap water for cooking. Eat only organic. A fluoride compound is used on many foods.


+1 for at least not consuming fluoride. the fluoride that is used in tap water is not fluoride but Sodium Fluoride, a toxic by-product of aluminum production. Not aware of it interfering with connective tissue metabolism but I wouldn't be surprised. But remember, organic doesn't always mean they don't use pesticides, just one's that are labelled "organic," doesn't make them any less toxic, just be aware that things aren't always as they seem.


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