Mountain Project - Forum Messages

Post re: The "Green" Psychosis

2009-12-08T08:49:07-06:00

Submitted By: Ben F
Location: Community Forum

PRRose wrote:

I just went with the one coughed up by Ben.

I have to give it to you. That's funny.

Post re: The "Green" Psychosis

2009-12-08T08:47:01-06:00

Submitted By: Ben F
Location: Community Forum

PRRose wrote:

Massive drum roll...we've been waiting for it for hours...the example of interference with human rights that will strip bare the socialist-fascist-communist-vegan attack on our most blessed American freedoms...and it's SMOKING IN RESTAURANTS!!!!!! To the barricades, men and women of liberty! The smoker's right to be douchebags and to make other people ill must be defended at all costs! And that's your number one example? Pretty pathetic... I'm not sure I could find a better example to make so-called "libertarians" seem merely selfish. Are you sure that you didn't come up with smoking in restaurants as a bit of self-parody?

PR, you were almost being civil for a while. Do most attorneys think that condescension and sarcasism make their case?

Anyway, please tell me where my example is incorrect. I don't recall claiming that the smoking ban was the most egregious transgression ("number one example"). It's an easy one. Here are some questions for you and "progressives." Do supporters of the ban own the restaurants/bars where they want the ban enacted? Is anyone forcing others to be in these restaurants/bars? Of course, some of the control freaks defend the bans by saying we already have building and health codes. Saying that we already do something so we should do something else doesn't necessarily make a good case. It's not like anyone can walk into a place and determine if it's structurally sound, but smoke in the air is pretty obvious. Don't like it, then don't go in there. If you're being made ill, then it's by your own choice. To be clear, I expect that smoke to be kept within the confines of the bar/restaurant owner's property.

What's pretty selfish is forcing someone who is no way violating anothers' rights to change their behavior (like a smoking ban on private property, duh). Of course, there's nothing wrong with being selfish (putting yourself first) so long as you're not screwing anyone over.

Post re: Do climbers have health insurance?

2009-12-08T08:44:51-06:00

Submitted By: Europa
Location: Community Forum

Yes, I have health insurance. It's just a good idea.

Post re: WTB: -20 or -40 Degree Sleeping Bag

2009-12-08T08:34:53-06:00

Submitted By: lopgok
Location: For Sale / Wanted

You really need a vapor barrier liner for a -20 or -40 bag.
Without one, your insensible perspiration will freeze inside the bag.
You will be much colder.
You will need to melt more water for drinking.

I have actually used mine at -20F, in fairbanks ak.

Personally, I use VBL above freezing, as I do lots of desert hiking, and I can carry much less water.

Some bags have them built in such as the warmlite, others have them
available as an option. As a worst case, you can get a separate liner.

I a not a great fan of synthetic bags. I am sure have improved since I had my last one, but in my experience they are pretty heavy, bulky, and don't last as long as down.

Post re: Half grades?

2009-12-08T08:21:24-06:00

Submitted By: Jay Eggleston
Location: Discuss MountainProject.com

I agree that a dual grade is not necessary. It is fine how it is now on MP.

Post re: Sandstone MN icefest

2009-12-08T08:21:20-06:00

Submitted By: Jim Audas
Location: Midwest

I spoke with Tony on Sunday and he said the ice is starting to form and should be pretty good by this weekend.

Post: Do climbers have health insurance?

2009-12-08T08:20:22-06:00

Submitted By: Micah Isaac
Location: Community Forum

Yesterday a fellow climber posed the question: "How come climbers have to be self sufficient and will get crucified by the climbing community if they get rescued, but it's okay for them (or their friends on their behalf) to collect donations to pay for medical bills if they get hurt?"

As open enrollment season comes around I start to wonder: what percentage of the climbing community has health insurance and why/why not?
I'm not looking for a political debate or rants on the system. When it comes down to it, what do yo plan on doing if you get sick/hurt?

Post re: The Washington Post (finally) notices the climate scientist emails.

2009-12-08T08:15:37-06:00

Submitted By: Elijah Flenner
Location: Community Forum

Rostecrux wrote:

What concerns many liberty-minded people is that the GOV is pushing all this climate stuff down our throats. The GOV runs the military which is the largest polluter (measured in fossil fuels) in the world. They spend $400 per gallon to deliver fuel to troops in Afghanistan. These are the same people who want us to believe we should trust them and accept everything they say as fact. Its a difficult pill to swallow for many people. How do you reconcile the fact that the organizations pushing for climate legislation are also among the largest polluters on earth? Look deeper and it will be clear that profit, not altruism, is behind their efforts. They scare everyone, as when we are fearful, blood shunts from our brains to our muscles and literally we are less intelligent. Students who freak out before exams do poorly because of sympathetic dominance, and that is the point of all this fear-mongering - keep everyone afraid, and they will be less capable of critical thinking and more easily controlled. This is my fundamental point of view.

Let me get this straight. You think that human caused global warming is crap because the government says it is true, but a part of the government, the military, emits more greenhouse gasses than anyone else in the world. You believe that this is a contradiction. My main response is then to stop listening to the government on whether the climate change is real. Listen to the scientists, and most of them agree that there is human influenced global warming. The scientists had to convince the government first, now the government is reacting. There will be a lag between the reaction and the reduction of greenhouse gasses. There is also a huge difference in opinion on this issue between this administration and the last, so I would not expect the military to have tried to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions in the past. The pill is easy for me to swallow, and I am not afraid so there is plenty of blood in my head.

Post re: Knoxville or Chattanooga?

2009-12-08T08:12:31-06:00

Submitted By: camhead
Location: Southern States

Mike Anderson wrote:

Do you know that the average salary of a PhD in this country is $38,000?

Damn. I wish I made that much.

And yeah, Ben, I moved to Ohio, and have been trying to subsist on a steady diet of Eastern Sandstone. It's pretty good for the most part, minus all the damn humidity.

Post: The BEST new folk music!

2009-12-08T08:11:32-06:00

Submitted By: stredna
Location: Community Forum

What is it? Saw someone else do this for the hipster tunes, and it seemed to get a healthy response. We all listen to quite an array, so whats the newest or old school best in your opinion; I'm making mixed cd's as well... i like mason jennings, josh ritter, dylan, etc...

Post re: Gear Review - Aeropress Coffee Maker

2009-12-08T08:08:09-06:00

Submitted By: Daryl Allan
Location: Climbing Gear Reviews

In case anyone wanted to read up on Turkish coffee making methods..
http://www.howtobrewcoffee.com/Turkish.htm

Post re: surfing and wave sailing

2009-12-08T08:07:46-06:00

Submitted By: Hayne von Kolnitz
Location: Other Sports

Looks can be decieving. I took that picture some 20 years ago and sit here now wondering why I didn't paddle out that day. Then I remember, because of those pesky 15 to 18 foot clean up sets. LOL.

Here is another decieving photo of the left at Jaws.... looks nice, warm and inviting from here.... speaking of Jaws, I read a short news clip about the "Big Swell" and how thousands of spectators lined the cliff at Jaws to watch 3 dozen or more tow teams tackle the infamous wave.... what a mess that must be.

Still not much surf here today, maybe tomorrow... heres a pic of my home break at the Folly pier on one of those small but classic days with noone around... just 2 buddies in the water with the girl getting a sweet one...

Jaws left
Submitted By: Hayne von Kolnitz on Dec 8, 2009

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Folly Beach S.C.
Submitted By: Hayne von Kolnitz on Dec 8, 2009

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Post re: Climber Gets injured on Mr. Meanor 5-8+ Trad mixed route JailHouse Mt. Lemmon

2009-12-08T08:07:20-06:00

Submitted By: Jeff S
Location: Injuries and Accidents

thanks for sharing Kelsey. it's posts like this that let us all learn these lessons as a community, rather than having to learn all the hard lessons ourselves. i consider your post here a brave and selfless act. thank you.

Post re: Half grades?

2009-12-08T08:06:59-06:00

Submitted By: Eric Rhicard
Location: Discuss MountainProject.com

I think all grades can be a letter in either direction so pick one. It isn't that big a deal. For instance if I get on a 10a but it's 9+ or more 10b I don't care. It really isn't going to make a difference to most people anyway. The grades are guidelines. I think I agree with Sayar though, if you can have a 11c/d then you can have a 11d/12a. That is what the comment area is for I guess.

Post re: obnoxious hipster dance music?

2009-12-08T08:06:24-06:00

Submitted By: camhead
Location: Community Forum

wow. I wasn't aware that hipsters listened to this kind of crap. I just assumed that they listened to whiny emo, for some reason.

Post re: Santaquin Ice Update

2009-12-08T07:53:03-06:00

Submitted By: Matt Jesperson
Location: Northern Utah & Idaho

Ooooooo, that's nice.

Post re: Qcc latest letter to congress about Oak Flat Land Swap

2009-12-08T07:29:21-06:00

Submitted By: ErikF
Location: Arizona & New Mexico

for the record (with QCC minutes as back-up)

the portion of the QCC meetings that are "open" are open to anyone. the last QCC "open meeting" occurred in the second half of a Board meeting where some "private" discussions were held. it is false that the intent was only to "invite" attendees.

the QCC needs to do a better job of announcing those Open meetings to the climbing community. it turned out that the last Open meeting was not as well advertised as it should have been and maybe only folks who received personal invitations (from a variety of the QCC members) were in attendance. i would note that many who post herein showed up because of their involvement with individual QCC board members. we have held at least 2 fully Open meetings in the past years - one PCDS and one at PRG.

In sum, i believe we (QCC) will do a better job of advertising in the future. i don't believe anyone is trying to keep the door only half open.

so far, we have not yet picked the date of the quarterly Open meeting, but we will do so soon. the next one will be in the first quarter of 2010 i'm sure.

(personal comment from here on)

i might also note that Kirra and I are old friends (meaning friends for a long time - not that both of us are old - i'm old, Kirra is not - ) Over the years we have worked together on many projects. We have also been through a lot together as friends. I respect Kirra's passion and acknowledge her many contributions. She and I may not always agree, but I will continue to listen to what she has to say and argue with her when we disagree. I probably will do most of the arguing with her "off-line" because I think those types of disagreements are best not aired where potential opponents (non-climbers) can view them and bolster their position because they know the specifics of our disagreements.

Post re: Half grades?

2009-12-08T07:22:48-06:00

Submitted By: W.S.
Location: Discuss MountainProject.com

Sayar Kuchenski wrote:

MP allows 5.XXa/b, b/c, and c/d. What about 5.10d/11a, 11d/12a and so on and so forth? It should be added to the drop down menu.

I disagree. Just make a decision one way or the other, it's not that big of a deal.

Post re: WTB: -20 or -40 Degree Sleeping Bag

2009-12-08T06:26:44-06:00

Submitted By: bigwallrog
Location: For Sale / Wanted

2nd the western mountaineering bags have two and would never even think of using anything else don't bother w/. A dry loft cover on the bag as they don't breathe as well as claimed and tend to trap body moisture inside the bag where you don't want it besides if your in - 20-40 degree temps your dealing w ice/frost not water so down is not a problem as long as your dilligent in shaking off the frost and airing out the bag everyday.Invest in a good dri bag/compression sac.

You realy want the bag to breathe very very well ESP if your trying to dry out damp clothing overnight as your clothes dri out the moisture will condense as frost on the surface of the bag and can easly be shaken off in the am.

Get a good closed cell foam pad No Rubber Dollies/ Therm a pops .While a self inflating pad is nice for car camping they tend to pop way to easly even the so called tough ones and because they have air in them they will transfer alot of your body heat to the ground I have learned this the hard way and now only use closed cell foam
pads when it counts

Post re: oven mitt for climbers?

2009-12-08T05:53:41-06:00

Submitted By: Evan1984
Location: Climbing Gear Discussion

Along the same lines, I always get neoprene diving gloves would be good for ice.

Has anybody tried them. I think breathability might be an issue.

Evan

Post re: Qcc latest letter to congress about Oak Flat Land Swap

2009-12-08T05:51:51-06:00

Submitted By: Linda White
Location: Arizona & New Mexico

AWESOME job to all involved with the AF article....
My only thing is...I think there is a call for action right now, since McCAin has a 'push before Christmas' bug going.

I'm getting busy...
Geir can you send me your latest letter that you've sent? lindajft@gmail.com

Also, does anyone have a 'mass email contact' for climbers?

Linda

Post: Half grades?

2009-12-08T05:10:41-06:00

Submitted By: Sayar Kuchenski
Location: Discuss MountainProject.com

MP allows 5.XXa/b, b/c, and c/d. What about 5.10d/11a, 11d/12a and so on and so forth? It should be added to the drop down menu.

Post re: oven mitt for climbers?

2009-12-08T04:47:48-06:00

Submitted By: Gunkiemike
Location: Climbing Gear Discussion

Cotton? COTTON???

Better bring a spare set of real gloves. And some hot packs.

Post re: WTB Basic Climbing Gear Wish List - Rope, Draws, Grigri

2009-12-08T04:18:57-06:00

Submitted By: Evan1984
Location: For Sale / Wanted

I've got a set of near new quickdraws that I'll sell for $8.00/draw for the set of half set.

PM me to let me know if you want pictures/info.

Evan

Post re: obnoxious hipster dance music?

2009-12-08T03:57:36-06:00

Submitted By: Jeremy Monahan
Location: Community Forum

A few more off my list...

Friendly Fires
Of Montreal
The Bravery
Lykke Li
Tobacco
Phonat

And if you want super-extra obnoxious hipster dance tunes, check out Hyper Crush

Post re: The "Green" Psychosis

2009-12-08T03:51:46-06:00

Submitted By: Bobby Hanson
Location: Community Forum

Leo Paik wrote:

Not much into politics, but on a concrete level, these CFL bulbs don't seem to be so great in certain situations. They suck in the outdoor, darkness activated role. We've had to replace far more than the old incandescents.

Interesting. I've had the opposite experience. I haven't replaced a light bulb in almost 3 years now.

Leo Paik wrote:

They aren't so great in places where you tend to just turn the light on for a short bit and turn 'em off.

They do require warm-up time. But even when warming up, they should be at around 70% luminosity or so.

Leo Paik wrote:

Unfortunately, a bunch of these go in the trash. I've seen others do that. We did that, too, oops.

That's okay. As Tony pointed out earlier, the point of recycling is to help on the front end. CFLs aren't as toxic as some might have you believe. (See the link I provided from the EPA). The reason to recycle them is that the materials used in their construction is cheaper to recycle than to reproduce. As a side benefit, it also keeps a trace amount of mercury out of the landfills.

Leo Paik wrote:

Also, these solar panels' up front costs make them prohibitive to the average citizen of the world.

True. But the price is falling as new materials are being developed. My guess is that paint-on solar power is only about 5 or 10 years away now.

One cool thing about solar power, however, is that it doesn't require infrastructure like coal/oil/gas/nuclear. Some developing nations are actually skipping the 19th- and 20th-century technologies we use here because of infrastructure. See this article in The Economist about cell phone use in emerging markets. I foresee similar development in solar power.

Post re: Qcc latest letter to congress about Oak Flat Land Swap

2009-12-08T03:28:27-06:00

Submitted By: manuel rangel
Location: Arizona & New Mexico

Fred, maybe you can answer Kirra's questions since I am not capable of doing so?

I must be confused on the QCC public meeting policy. I thought it was open to the public, rather than by invitation, unless the meeting was private.

I appreciate all of Kirra's efforts to help QC remain in its current state. Thanks for posting the info, Fred.

Post re: The "Green" Psychosis

2009-12-08T02:16:51-06:00

Submitted By: PRRose
Location: Community Forum

Tony B wrote:

Yeah, libertarians are assholes, but lawyers on the other hand are not even worth making parodies and jokes of... not even back to the days of Shakespere. If Ben smoked, you'd have a point that his example was self-serving.

Then provide a better example. I just went with the one coughed up by Ben.

BTW--"asshole" is your description of libertarians, not mine, but I guess you'd know better than me.

Post re: WTB: -20 or -40 Degree Sleeping Bag

2009-12-08T01:26:42-06:00

Submitted By: J. Albers
Location: For Sale / Wanted

The sleeping pad is the most important part of the sleeping system in the cold? Hmmmm, I don't think so. I don't care how great your sleeping pad is, if it's 25 below and you don't have a good bag, you're f#cked.

Jacob, I know its financially painful, but if you can swing it, there is no substitute for a high quality down bag. If you are serious about spending any amount of time in truly cold weather (and yes, northern Wisc., the UP of Michigan and Alaska all count), a good down bag is an incredibly worthwhile investment that will last you 15 years or more.

My Western Mountaineering bag is one of my most treasured pieces of gear. You practically have to sell a kidney to get one, but you will wonder how you got along without it once you spend a week out in 25 below weather. Western Mountaineering and Marmot both make very nice 800+ fill down bags that are very high quality. Furthermore, as Tom points out, synthetic gets broken down with time and will not last nearly as long as a high quality down bag. When its that cold, do you really want to f**k around with an inferior bag? Shit, if you are in the backcountry in Alaska, that could easily become not only uncomfortable, but dangerous.
Cheers.

Post re: WTB Basic Climbing Gear Wish List - Rope, Draws, Grigri

2009-12-08T01:22:25-06:00

Submitted By: kula922
Location: For Sale / Wanted

I have some:
qd's
An ATC
and maybe some lockers,

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/for_sale__wanted/fs_biners_>>>>>

and

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/for_sale__wanted/quick_draw>>>>>

Let me know if your interested in any of it...

Post re: The "Green" Psychosis

2009-12-08T00:36:20-06:00

Submitted By: Leo Paik
Location: Community Forum

Not much into politics, but on a concrete level, these CFL bulbs don't seem to be so great in certain situations. They suck in the outdoor, darkness activated role. We've had to replace far more than the old incandescents. They aren't so great in places where you tend to just turn the light on for a short bit and turn 'em off. Unfortunately, a bunch of these go in the trash. I've seen others do that. We did that, too, oops.

Also, these solar panels' up front costs make them prohibitive to the average citizen of the world.

Post re: The "Green" Psychosis

2009-12-08T00:11:54-06:00

Submitted By: Bobby Hanson
Location: Community Forum

Ben F wrote:

Tony already vouched for me on that one. The burden of proof could also be on you to disprove what I said.

My point is that you didn't say anything. You said, "progressives are reducing human rights." You hadn't offered even an example. Ben, you are a racist. Disprove what I said.

Ben F wrote:

...if you want an easy one, then banning smoking in bars and restaurants open to the public is an example of a "progressive" policy which violates people's rights.

Okay, now we at least have an example. First of all, not really a human right, this is a civil liberty.

Second, I live in (ahem...progressive?) Utah. We have such a ban on smoking in bars and restaurants here. Clearly conservatives are responsible for taking away this civil liberty here, not progressives.

Third, I am a progressive and I don't support a smoking ban in bars and restaurants. I am not a smoker, I don't like being around smokers. But I am opposed to such a ban because of my strong stance on civil liberties. My favorite pub here in Salt Lake has had a ban on smoking long before the statewide ban, which is one reason I started going there. Market forces at work?

I don't think any of my progressive friends give a shit one way or the other about smoking bans. Many of them are busy working toward promoting actual human rights, like life and liberty.

Want to talk about one of those? Or do you have another example?

Post re: Anyone else fed up with mainstream news sources?

2009-12-08T00:11:30-06:00

Submitted By: Helldorado
Location: Community Forum

I agree with you on the fact that most channels are practically worthless. Television represents the state of the nation. The standards have really dropped in the past five years. One channel that keeps it real from time to time is KBDI, although they have some pretty boring shit on there sometimes.

Post re: The Washington Post (finally) notices the climate scientist emails.

2009-12-07T23:58:02-06:00

Submitted By: Rostecrux
Location: Community Forum

To Crag:

To claim that we're progressing away from one pure system toward another is a gross over-simplification of the true meanings of the terms and a complete disregard for the reality, which is that almost every nation possesses elements of each system and has for a long time.

Alright, good point. Those terms don't really mean anything anymore...

Regardless of whether the result of our behaviors is rising temperatures or simply horrible pollution, it is in our best interest to find ways to NOT produce more waste products than is necessary.

What concerns many liberty-minded people is that the GOV is pushing all this climate stuff down our throats. The GOV runs the military which is the largest polluter (measured in fossil fuels) in the world. They spend $400 per gallon to deliver fuel to troops in Afghanistan. These are the same people who want us to believe we should trust them and accept everything they say as fact. Its a difficult pill to swallow for many people. How do you reconcile the fact that the organizations pushing for climate legislation are also among the largest polluters on earth? Look deeper and it will be clear that profit, not altruism, is behind their efforts. They scare everyone, as when we are fearful, blood shunts from our brains to our muscles and literally we are less intelligent. Students who freak out before exams do poorly because of sympathetic dominance, and that is the point of all this fear-mongering - keep everyone afraid, and they will be less capable of critical thinking and more easily controlled. This is my fundamental point of view.

To Lee:

. . . sounds like you're explaining the Bush Whitehouse. Are you aware that some of the federally funded research on global warming was largely ignored and quashed for those 8 years?

If not, why the conspiracy theory? What can the thousands of physical/natural scientists working for mostly universities and colleges possibly stand to gain from fabricating this?It's plain and simple: the research is overwhelming.

Those thousands of physical/natural scientists are all competing for the same research dollars and those research dollars are potentially biased for certain points of view. If the source of scientific funding promotes a certain agenda, then those scientists in support of that agenda will be able to find a job. Those uncovering conflicting data may not get hired, and their data not published. Think it can't happen?

Post re: oven mitt for climbers?

2009-12-07T23:43:43-06:00

Submitted By: Woodchuck ATC
Location: Climbing Gear Discussion

Must be a different Ov' than the old one I have. Mine is a dingy yellow and pretty thick, cumbersome, not much dexterity to it. Have you tried really thick wool gloves to compare? Good luck.

Post re: The Mountain Project Armory

2009-12-07T23:41:24-06:00

Submitted By: Woodchuck ATC
Location: Community Forum

Hunt coyotes and other large pesky varmints of that size( marauding groundhogs for example).

Post re: Boulder or San Francisco

2009-12-07T23:32:53-06:00

Submitted By: Forestvonsinkafinger
Location: General Climbing

Evan Simons wrote:

I think you meant to post that in the global warming thread.

Hilarious!

There may be more climbing in the San-Diego area than the Bay. I don't consider Yosemite in the Bay area. My hasty, unfounded generalization of both places, is that the rent is high, and everyone is trying to push an agenda. What criterion brought you to choosing between Boulder and the Bay? Could you share with us your qualms with Boulder?

Might I suggest: Estes Park; Asheville; NC, Taos, NM; Squamish, BC; Chamonix, FR and if you want to know what driving 12 hours to climb granite feels like...Iowa

Post re: The "Green" Psychosis

2009-12-07T23:28:55-06:00

Submitted By: Tony B
Location: Community Forum

PRRose wrote:

I'm not sure I could find a better example to make so-called "libertarians" seem merely selfish. Are you sure that you didn't come up with smoking in restaurants as a bit of self-parody?

Yeah, libertarians are assholes, but lawyers on the other hand are not even worth making parodies and jokes of... not even back to the days of Shakespere.
If Ben smoked, you'd have a point that his example was self-serving.

Post re: Anyone else fed up with mainstream news sources?

2009-12-07T23:25:50-06:00

Submitted By: JLP
Location: Community Forum

Same as it ever was.

Post re: Lee Smith Drunk & Naked on 12-17 !!@@!!

2009-12-07T23:20:50-06:00

Submitted By: Ben Panter
Location: Colorado & Rocky Mountain R...

Something just came up, not that way either - Lee don't flatter yourself
Nah I'll be there you thirsty bitches!

Post re: Petzl "Power of Light" Contest

2009-12-07T23:16:17-06:00

Submitted By: Forestvonsinkafinger
Location: Community Forum

It is on mount Fuji. Maybe the most climbed mountain in the world. I also use Nikon SLR, yet to get a point and shoot. I have considered the shock/frost/water resistant Olympus ones.

You better start putting on the lbs, to get more Petzl gear.

Post re: Boulder or San Francisco

2009-12-07T23:12:52-06:00

Submitted By: Mike Lane
Location: General Climbing

Everyone should spend at least a little time living in the bay area sometime during their life.

Post re: The Mountain Project Armory

2009-12-07T23:06:11-06:00

Submitted By: Tom R
Location: Community Forum

Woodchuck ATC wrote:

Got to agree on the venison. Great to have at this time of year. As for .357, well I just love the 12 inch long barrel and scope I have for my Dan Wesson. Great for med. size game hunting, but tough for a quick draw out of the holster.

What do you hunt with a pistol? I've never heard of this before.
Oh, and +1 on the venison. If any of you hunters need to get rid of some steaks, I'd be willing to give them a good home.

Post re: oven mitt for climbers?

2009-12-07T22:47:57-06:00

Submitted By: timt
Location: Climbing Gear Discussion

in all seriousness, i have/am testing this "in home" and it IS working! i have a cold pack that i have been holding for over 30 minutes and can't feel any cold.

says the exterior is "100% Aramid fibers" & interior is cotton. as thin as this oven mitt (glove really) is this could be a ridiculously good idea for ice hands. i am buying a 2nd one and trying it on some pumpy stuff!

Post re: ICE Climbing Advice

2009-12-07T22:43:40-06:00

Submitted By: Greg D
Location: Colorado & Rocky Mountain R...

Thanks for all the great advice. Jack. You paint quite an ugly picture. I thought you were an ice climber?

Traffic and parking won't be an issue. Beetle kill trees... maybe, cold hands and feet, yeah, I'm kinda expecting that. It will be my birthday and my tradition for many years has always been to climb rock, usually in Eldo. But, it just doesn't look like the weather is going to give. So, time to get on some ice.

Buff, are you still planning on being out there?

Post re: The "Green" Psychosis

2009-12-07T22:34:38-06:00

Submitted By: mushroomcloud2
Location: Community Forum

Ben F wrote:

There's just something that makes me have to exert extra effort to keep the beer from blowing out of my nose everytime someone tells me that they're a "progressive."

Is the extra effort really worth it.... you're starving us from wonderful entertainment! We need to see projectile nose beer!

And by the way....Pitchers are on Ron!

Post re: The Washington Post (finally) notices the climate scientist emails.

2009-12-07T22:31:40-06:00

Submitted By: Lee Frazer
Location: Community Forum

Rostecrux...as for this statement . . .

"Do you think that definition is appropriate...when Haliburton, GM, and all sorts of other major intl. corporations are directly in bed with the White House? Does this behavior concern you, and can you assure me that the information provided by said corporate-government organizations are trustworthy? Are the scientists they employ and feed trustworthy? Is it possible that there is more here than meets the eyes?"

. . . sounds like you're explaining the Bush Whitehouse. Are you aware that some of the federally funded research on global warming was largely ignored and quashed for those 8 years?

If not, why the conspiracy theory? What can the thousands of physical/natural scientists working for mostly universities and colleges possibly stand to gain from fabricating this?It's plain and simple: the research is overwhelming.

Post re: FS: Beal Stinger 9.4mm x 60m Rope

2009-12-07T22:21:19-06:00

Submitted By: Steve Levin
Location: For Sale / Wanted

SOLD!

Post re: Boulder or San Francisco

2009-12-07T22:20:12-06:00

Submitted By: pfwein
Location: General Climbing

tom selleck wrote:

group think?

I mean Front Rangers are always yappin about how great the weather is here. While it ain't the worst, it sure ain't the best either: it's sort of "Midwest plus" (hot as hell in the summer, but you can get high, cold in the winter, and there's nothing you can do about it.)

And for a place that has a pretty low annual rain fall, rain sure causes problems for climbers with the old afternoon thunder storms.

Post: Looking for local Vegas Partner

2009-12-07T22:17:08-06:00

Submitted By: Mike Bond
Location: Nevada

I'm looking for a couple of locals to climb with from time to time. I am an experienced climber (15+ years) that took about 5 years off until the summer of this year. I've been climbing with my wife recently, but she just got a job that will require her to work some weekends and she will also be travelling for most of January.

I am mostly interested in sport climbing (with some multi-pitch trad thrown in for variety). I have climbed harder, but am more in 5.11 redpoint shape at the moment and want to get in mileage as much as send projects. I have always enjoyed a day of ticking off easier routes as much as a day of working a project.

Over this winter/spring season...I want to climb pretty much every Saturday and Sunday at Red Rocks or the local limestone areas (The La Madres (particularly the Fire Wall) & Potosi) as well as the crags near Mesquite (Sun City), and St George areas. I have climbed at just about every crag within 3 hours of town...at one time or another.

Who wants to climb?

Post re: The "Green" Psychosis

2009-12-07T22:11:05-06:00

Submitted By: Steve Williams
Location: Community Forum

Nothing wrong being green. I get 50mpg with my hybrid civic,
free electricity from the solar panels on my home. Conserving
doesn't mean having less, it means using what you have better.

Too bad you don't seem to get the message.

Post re: Which Drill

2009-12-07T22:04:18-06:00

Submitted By: Tzilla Rapdrilla
Location: Sport Climbing

I have been drilling routes for 20 years and have used about every type of drill on the market. I would strongly recommend getting a lithium ion powered drill, preferably 24v Bosch. NiCad batteries basically suck, don't hold up in the cold, don't last for very many years unless you use the drill frequently, and are very expensive. The lithium ion batteries developed for the new hybrid cars are MUCH lighter and don't seem to be nearly as expensive.

A 24v drill should have all the cutting power you need and if you ever needed to you could modify the drill to run off of lead acid gel cells without ending up with a 25 lb battery pack. It is probably a good idea to be careful modifying any of the newer drills as they have electronics for evenly draining the factory battery packs in the switch. Reversing the polarity on a modified set-up can fry the switch, at least in a Bosch.

Post re: Solo Aiding Traverses?

2009-12-07T22:02:49-06:00

Submitted By: Nate Brown
Location: Big Wall and Aid Climbing

"The best way to go soloing is... Get a partner"

--John Varco

hahaha

Post re: Big wall harness recommendation?

2009-12-07T22:00:31-06:00

Submitted By: Nate Brown
Location: Big Wall and Aid Climbing

Andy,

Check out the Petzl Calidris.

good ventilation

wide support

low profile, very naaiiiice

We dropped our butt-seat on pitch 3 of Mescalito in push style and My nads survived in said Calidris.

Happy walling

Post re: The Washington Post (finally) notices the climate scientist emails.

2009-12-07T22:00:30-06:00

Submitted By: Mike Larson
Location: Community Forum

Rostecrux wrote:

BTW, I know what Facism means. Attacking my intelligence instead of discussing the issue is childish. Does anyone here think they have all the answers? Mussolini said Facism was the merger of the Corporate and the State. Do you think that definition is appropriate...when Haliburton, GM, and all sorts of other major intl. corporations are directly in bed with the White House? Does this behavior concern you, and can you assure me that the information provided by said corporate-government organizations are trustworthy? Are the scientists they employ and feed trustworthy? Is it possible that there is more here than meets the eyes?

Keep digging. . . you just might hit China.

Post re: The Mountain Project Armory

2009-12-07T22:00:21-06:00

Submitted By: Woodchuck ATC
Location: Community Forum

joshf wrote:

Remington 700 30-06 with a 26 inch barrel...nice and accurate. Favorite handgun would have to be a Smith and Wesson 357 mag, its nice because 38 special bullets don't hurt if you want to go target shooting. As for guns being bad and all, my freezer had two deer at the moment so i'll have to err on the side of delicious.

Post re: WTB: -20 or -40 Degree Sleeping Bag

2009-12-07T21:59:20-06:00

Submitted By: England
Location: For Sale / Wanted

Don't forget about the sleeping pad! You lose the most body heat through the ground or whatever you might be sleeping on. IMHO the sleeping pad is the MOST important part of comfortable sleeping in the cold. Good Luck!

Post re: petite female alpinists,,,advice please

2009-12-07T21:54:47-06:00

Submitted By: dirtbag
Location: For Sale / Wanted

thanks everyone... she's checking them out right now... still open to new ideas though.

Post re: oven mitt for climbers?

2009-12-07T21:49:36-06:00

Submitted By: Woodchuck ATC
Location: Climbing Gear Discussion

Don't think it's the same idea. The gloves are usually made of flameproof and heat resistant Nomex materials. Doesn't mean squat for cold though. Probably work the same as a thick pair of Dachstein wool gloves, and the oven glove certainly isn't waterproof either. Save them for pulling your carelessly dropped gear out of the campfire!

Post re: Which Drill

2009-12-07T21:36:56-06:00

Submitted By: Vince Arena
Location: Sport Climbing

Price wrote:

What part of the drill do you wish to modify?

Mostly the extension of the battery pack for drilling on lead. But any other useful mods would be cool too

Post re: Ice partner wanted

2009-12-07T21:36:12-06:00

Submitted By: Christian "crisco" Burrell
Location: Northern Utah & Idaho

That was awesome Zozo! HA!

Post re: Boulder or San Francisco

2009-12-07T21:31:21-06:00

Submitted By: tom selleck
Location: General Climbing

pfwein wrote:

but I've felt there's a bit of group think, especially as regards to the weather. (Anyone wonder how a small city can support 3 big gyms, with plenty more in greater Denver?)

group think?

Post re: glove leather

2009-12-07T21:28:44-06:00

Submitted By: Kellrp
Location: Ice Climbing

Justin's man milk... If that doesn't work I have heard of people using snow seal.

Post re: Boulder or San Francisco

2009-12-07T21:24:20-06:00

Submitted By: Rob Kepley
Location: General Climbing

pfwein wrote:

Alpine season (again talking basic rock) is super short, and even at low elevation the weather is hit or miss for close to half the year.

When you're finished smokin' that bowl send it my way!

Post re: Gear Review - Aeropress Coffee Maker

2009-12-07T21:21:29-06:00

Submitted By: camhead
Location: Climbing Gear Reviews

I was surprised that nobody mentioned just plain cone filters until well into the second page. I much prefer that over the French Press. Though, in the backcountry, the trash cleanup would be a problem with the soggy filters.

Post re: glove leather

2009-12-07T21:19:59-06:00

Submitted By: Tony Metzger
Location: Ice Climbing

Here are some professional tips I found.

http://twins.fandome.com/video/2466/Team-Rawlings-Commercial>>>>>

Post re: The "Green" Psychosis

2009-12-07T21:18:26-06:00

Submitted By: PRRose
Location: Community Forum

Ben F wrote:

Tony already vouched for me on that one. The burden of proof could also be on you to disprove what I said. To be fair, many "conservatives" are just the other side to the same coin where pissing on rights is concerned. There's just something that makes me have to exert extra effort to keep the beer from blowing out of my nose everytime someone tells me that they're a "progressive." I was really hoping that you'd try to find some examples on your own, but if you want an easy one, then banning smoking in bars and restaurants open to the public is an example of a "progressive" policy which violates people's rights. I can't wait for the backlash on this post. We're getting off topic, but this still relates to some of the same "psychosis."

Massive drum roll...we've been waiting for it for hours...the example of interference with human rights that will strip bare the socialist-fascist-communist-vegan attack on our most blessed American freedoms...and it's

SMOKING IN RESTAURANTS!!!!!!

To the barricades, men and women of liberty! The smoker's right to be douchebags and to make other people ill must be defended at all costs!

And that's your number one example? Pretty pathetic...

I'm not sure I could find a better example to make so-called "libertarians" seem merely selfish. Are you sure that you didn't come up with smoking in restaurants as a bit of self-parody?

Post re: glove leather

2009-12-07T21:16:36-06:00

Submitted By: Tony Metzger
Location: Ice Climbing

Just did my gloves yesterday. I can't say weather the method is endoresed my the high tech cows giving their lives so I can look cool while other people climb, but it's worked well for alot of years for me.

Clean the gloves and get them damp (one step for me. I put them on and wash my hands in warm water without soap). Remove one glove and apply the treatment of choice (Nikwax waterproofing wax for my gloves. I apply a healthy dose to all the leather and looks like leather parts without worrying too much about the fabric portions. Work the goop in thoroughly(sp?). Then do the other glove. Let the mitts sit at room temp or above for a day or two the hit 'em again if they feel dry or look like they need it.

I don't worry about the fabric portions too much because I'm constantly wiping snot, digging cams outta dirty (possibly yellow?)snow, and generally abusing the things. That being said, I got a healthy 5 years out of my last pair of gloves with this same treatment technique until I finally wore clean through the lether in areas.

Post re: Boulder or San Francisco

2009-12-07T21:09:14-06:00

Submitted By: pfwein
Location: General Climbing

The rock climbing weather in Boulder isn't quite what it's cracked up to be: not saying it's terrible, it's just not all that. Alpine season (again talking basic rock) is super short, and even at low elevation the weather is hit or miss for close to half the year. Yeah I know there are nice days throughout the winter (which really includes half the fall and early spring)-- but there are plenty of totally unclimbable and marginal days also.

Of course it's a good place to live for climbing, but I've felt there's a bit of group think, especially as regards to the weather. (Anyone wonder how a small city can support 3 big gyms, with plenty more in greater Denver?)

Post re: WTB: -20 or -40 Degree Sleeping Bag

2009-12-07T21:08:03-06:00

Submitted By: Jacob Krenn
Location: For Sale / Wanted

Thanks for the advice Tom! I'm generally weary of trusting a bad to provide comfort at it's rating, more or less survival (especially synthetics). I have a NF Snowshoe 0*F synthetic that I've used for awhile now, and just want something for the colder temps (I live in WI currently, spend summer/fall in AK). Bump.

Post re: The "Green" Psychosis

2009-12-07T21:07:19-06:00

Submitted By: Ben F
Location: Community Forum

Bobby Hanson wrote:

Can you be more insulting?

Tony already vouched for me on that one. The burden of proof could also be on you to disprove what I said. To be fair, many "conservatives" are just the other side to the same coin where pissing on rights is concerned. There's just something that makes me have to exert extra effort to keep the beer from blowing out of my nose everytime someone tells me that they're a "progressive."

I was really hoping that you'd try to find some examples on your own, but if you want an easy one, then banning smoking in bars and restaurants open to the public is an example of a "progressive" policy which violates people's rights.

I can't wait for the backlash on this post. We're getting off topic, but this still relates to some of the same "psychosis."

Post: oven mitt for climbers?

2009-12-07T21:03:19-06:00

Submitted By: timt
Location: Climbing Gear Discussion

So i needed a new oven mitt and i bought the "superglove" for $15, with the thought that if a glove resists 500-degree heat it otta be good for cold too. well i did some comparative studies: holding an ice pack in the oven glove hand and a beer in the other to see which hand got cold first. inherent problem: the beer disappeared before the glove hand got cold and before the test was over i was peeing in the air while making snow angels.

anyone tried these climbing? they are a touch big for me, but seem like they could be incredible for ice and mixed since they are super thin and grippy.

Post re: glove leather

2009-12-07T20:56:59-06:00

Submitted By: Evan Simons
Location: Ice Climbing

Put some tape or something over the breathable parts so they don't get all gunked up and sealed, it's harder than you think to keep it only on the leather. And rub it into the seams really well or it kinda flakes off and leaves the already most vulnerable parts untreated.

Post re: Gear Review - Aeropress Coffee Maker

2009-12-07T20:52:48-06:00

Submitted By: Spider Savage
Location: Climbing Gear Reviews

Turkish Coffee is my solution to good outdoor coffee. It requires no gear. It's not messy and makes an awesome cup, with crema.

Post: Weather in oak canyon this time of year?

2009-12-07T20:48:07-06:00

Submitted By: Greg G
Location: Arizona & New Mexico

Temperatures? Ice?

How are the south facing crags?

Post re: WTB: -20 or -40 Degree Sleeping Bag

2009-12-07T20:45:43-06:00

Submitted By: Tom Tresslar
Location: For Sale / Wanted

Beware of a synthetic that is substantially used. If the insulation has broken down some and you're banking on -20 or warmer you could be in for a really shitty night.

Post re: Which Drill

2009-12-07T20:43:59-06:00

Submitted By: Spider Savage
Location: Sport Climbing

Rawl hand drill: Bit's don't fall out and you don't fuck up the rock with 10 second holes. You think, plan carefully, choose a nice hard spot that rings when you hit it with a hammer. You spend up to an hour drilling that 3-1/2" hole in granite. You make damn sure it's a worth the effort before you drill.

Post re: The working professional

2009-12-07T20:43:24-06:00

Submitted By: tom selleck
Location: Community Forum

News Flash:

Tiger Woods is vacationing in Bermuda.

Post: glove leather

2009-12-07T20:38:36-06:00

Submitted By: justin harkins
Location: Ice Climbing

Anyone ever tried to treat the leather on their gloves?

Anything I should do/definitely not do?

Post: WTB: -20 or -40 Degree Sleeping Bag

2009-12-07T20:37:45-06:00

Submitted By: Jacob Krenn
Location: For Sale / Wanted

Looking to purchase either a -20*F or a -40*F sleeping bag. No preference over down or synthetic, and don't mind used gear as long as it still has some loft left and isn't thrashed. Let me know! Thanks!

Post re: pawtuckaway anchors...the nuts and bolts

2009-12-07T20:35:01-06:00

Submitted By: burlap submariner
Location: Eastern States

Thanks for the positive outlook Matt! That seems like a good idea to start advocacy group for pway. If people can come together to have a common solution then we definatley wont have any issues like what happened in Conway. Any other ideas?

Post: WTB Basic Climbing Gear Wish List - Rope, Draws, Grigri

2009-12-07T20:29:19-06:00

Submitted By: Rad R
Location: For Sale / Wanted

Hey! I'm making the transition from bouldering to sport and would love to get my hands on some gear. I'm a grad student so I have some extra cash, but still need to be on a budget if I want to eat something other than Ramen soup.

Here are a few of the things I'd like to pick up -

Grigri
Quickdraws - wire gate preferred
Rope
Another crash pad - @ least 3 in
Rope Bag
Locking Biners
ATC

Let me know if you can help me out. Thanks!

Rad

Post re: Cams Cams Cams... new and used

2009-12-07T20:26:30-06:00

Submitted By: mghorst
Location: For Sale / Wanted

Pending sale on 3, 3.5's, 4.5, and 5

Post re: Cams Cams Cams... new and used

2009-12-07T20:24:03-06:00

Submitted By: mghorst
Location: For Sale / Wanted

New, unused... Either way there are no scrathces and the tags are still on. Got them from a guy who had three or four sets of them. Must have had a gear shop or something.

Post re: Cams Cams Cams... new and used

2009-12-07T20:20:45-06:00

Submitted By: Jared O'Brien
Location: For Sale / Wanted

I'll take that 4.5 camalot if you still have it. My phone # is (720) 322-3084, thanks.

Post re: Climber Gets injured on Mr. Meanor 5-8+ Trad mixed route JailHouse Mt. Lemmon

2009-12-07T20:18:12-06:00

Submitted By: Eric Rhicard
Location: Injuries and Accidents

Hope your friend has a speedy recovery. Sounds like you did what you needed to and saved his life.

The reality of this situation is that the leader has to decide for themselves to go for it or not. Sport climbing makes this a bit less risky but not totally. It really isn't up to a partner to decide for them. You can talk with them and try to make your point as you did, but in the end it was his decision. This guy went for it and blew it. That is a part of climbing. You did your best and you have learned some hard lessons. Hopefully others will learn from this tragedy and make a better choice. It is the leaders responsibility to make good choices when their life is at stake. One would hope that the leader might make a choice that would not have had such a dramatic impact on your life.

Post re: Which Drill

2009-12-07T20:17:21-06:00

Submitted By: Dustin B
Location: Sport Climbing

I've used my roommate's Milwakee 28v quite a bit. It works really well.

Post re: Climber Cars

2009-12-07T20:13:49-06:00

Submitted By: Ben C
Location: Climbing Gear Discussion

very cool suggestions. i've been thinking about building a bed in the back (the seats fold down flat for maximum storage space). And in the future i'll probably be getting a tacoma or a van or something bigger. i'll have to post images when i get something figured out! thanks for the suggestions!

Post re: Boulder or San Francisco

2009-12-07T20:13:12-06:00

Submitted By: Tevis Blom
Location: General Climbing

Aside from the Sierra and a few scattered crags (all of which require at least a day trip), living in the Bay Area totally f*&^%^g blows. Be prepared to drive quite a bit for your cragging, sometimes to find it is less than you expected. I grew up in San Jose, climbed at all of the local places within several hours ('bedrock' or the 'Mazzones' in San Jose was closed to become a golf course...). Sport climbing was at least 45 minutes away (and not all that great).

Living in Colorado, you get a bit more attitude (perhaps), but I can think of 7 different distinct climbing/rock styles within 1 hour of Boulder. Eldorado canyon, Flagstaff, flatirons, boulder canyon, clear creek, morrison, RMNP/longs peak, Lumpy. If you drive up to 2 hours add Vedavue (sp?), turkey rocks, Mt. evans, S. platte. and more.
Also, Rifle, the Black, Independence Pass, the list goes on and on for Colorado climbing (not to mention technical 14er's)

If you truly want to be more than a weekend warrior, Colorado is the place to be. In one day I have; skied and climbed, gone to school and skied, skied then work, climb then work... you basically have options and proximity here.

Post re: The Washington Post (finally) notices the climate scientist emails.

2009-12-07T20:07:40-06:00

Submitted By: Tyson Anderson
Location: Community Forum

Here is a cool graphic that tries to explain both sides of the debate:

http://www.informationisbeautiful.net/visualizations/climate>>>>>

Post re: The working professional

2009-12-07T20:06:09-06:00

Submitted By: Rob Kepley
Location: Community Forum

Phil Lauffen wrote:

What are you saying? You want a gift card for christmas?

Nice one Phil!

Post re: Cams Cams Cams... new and used

2009-12-07T20:05:47-06:00

Submitted By: Adam Block
Location: For Sale / Wanted

Sirius wrote:

Maybe unused would be a better term than new, ha, but those are indeed 'new' prices.

I shouldn't even respond but I couldn't help but laugh at your comment so I had to thank you for saying it :)

Post re: Best Cat Photo?

2009-12-07T19:59:18-06:00

Submitted By: Tevis Blom
Location: General Climbing

attack manx
Submitted By: Tevis Blom on Dec 7, 2009

<@? echo PostCache::objectEditBar(106623172,"NEW","IMAGE", "COMMENT", "edit, move, del, reassign",array(106116388,13070,13070),array(103989403,103989405,106617213,106623192,106623172),"13070", "" ); ?@>

snow lover/part bobcat
Submitted By: Tevis Blom on Dec 7, 2009

<@? echo PostCache::objectEditBar(106623190,"NEW","IMAGE", "COMMENT", "edit, move, del, reassign",array(106116388,13070,13070),array(103989403,103989405,106617213,106623192,106623190),"13070", "" ); ?@>

Post: Hangar 18 hawthorne and Rockreation west LA partners

2009-12-07T19:58:13-06:00

Submitted By: other
Location: Southern California Partner...

Looking for people to climb with at hangar 18 south bay (beach city rocks) and rockreation west LA. Not any other locations of those gyms.

Post re: FS: Trango S EVO GTX

2009-12-07T19:58:02-06:00

Submitted By: JGoldsmith
Location: For Sale / Wanted

Bump for photos

Post re: Beer Night, Fort Collins

2009-12-07T19:56:24-06:00

Submitted By: Kevin Landolt
Location: Colorado & Rocky Mountain R...

Actually yeah, I'll be there. I'll try and round up a few more closet mp posters to.

Post re: No falls?

2009-12-07T19:54:57-06:00

Submitted By: Phil Lauffen
Location: General Climbing

have you ever fallen in an gym? I haven't read everything but I'm just wondering.

Post re: The "Green" Psychosis

2009-12-07T19:46:09-06:00

Submitted By: Bobby Hanson
Location: Community Forum

Tony B wrote:

He can. But actually I understood his point/message differently. If he said liberty and property, he's expecting you'd say those were not rights. See, the progressive movement frequetly defines "rights" differently than others do. IE- According to some, you don't really have a right to free speach if it is non-PC. You don't have a right to property if they think it should be taken 'for the public good.' So what Ben appears to be saying is that the difference inbetween what some people consider rights (Life, Liberty and Property) and others do not are the ones progressives would limit. Or at least that's how I understood it.

That may be, Tony, but the burden is on Ben to tell us which rights he is referring to. He made a generalizing statement, "progressives want to reduce human rights." I simply wanted him to elaborate. That is not unreasonable.

Post re: No falls?

2009-12-07T19:39:30-06:00

Submitted By: climberKJ
Location: General Climbing

Right on Erik and Anthony.

Who cares as long as you're having fun? It's different for everyone. Do what you're comfortable with.

Personally, I like falling. It gives me confidence and motivation to get up, do the move again, and know I am safe in the process. Of course, that's the whole key. Knowing when it's safe/not to go for it.

Falling/not falling, it's all fair play if you stay smart and you're still smiling.

Post re: The Washington Post (finally) notices the climate scientist emails.

2009-12-07T19:35:40-06:00

Submitted By: Crag Dweller
Location: Community Forum

The debate against climate change seems to be centered around the fact that the climate has fluctuated drastically over 10's and 100's of thousands of years. And, that is true.

But, here's the deal. When it has fluctuated, the earth has become a pretty inhospitable place for humans. The last ice age nearly wiped us out.

So, some fluctuation may be natural. But, we're rather wimpy in the big picture. Our tolerance is extremely narrow. And, we should do our best to keep things within our range of tolerance. Regardless of whether the result of our behaviors is rising temperatures or simply horrible pollution, it is in our best interest to find ways to NOT produce more waste products than is necessary.

And, as far as the leaked e-mail situation goes, it's a red herring. The fact that one team of scientists behaved poorly does not invalidate the work of all the scientists who've worked on this.